Devilfex vs Exocrine

[coredump]

While beating my head putting together a list a large part was which HS selections to use.

I came upon a hypothosis, Devilfex was still better than Exocrine and Tfex. I started a thread to get some ideas of what units would let the Exocrine 'shine', what units would be the prime targets for an exocrine. (I will address the Tfex in a later thread)

I then ran the numbers to compare a Devilfex to a Exocrine for those units:

Fex = Devilfex (2 TLDev)
ExoS = Exocrine Stationary (BS4)
ExoM = Exocrine Moved (BS3)

If the results were within 10%, I considered them the same. I took into account shooting in the open, area terain, and ruins.


Marine Bikers: T5 3+/Jink
Fex is always the same or better than Exo

Tac Marines: T4 3+
Exo is only better if stationary *and* the marines do not get any cover saves.

Warp Spiders: T3 3+
Exo is only better if stationary *and* there is no cover save

Jetbikes: T3 3+/Jink
Fex is always better

Terminators: T4 2+/5++
ExoS is always better (usually 75% better)
ExoM is better unless the Terminators are in ruins

SS/TH Terminators: T4 2+/3++
Fex is always much better
Note: A mixed unit with SS model in front will also have this result

Riptide: T6 2+/5++
Fex = .75
ExoS = 1.78 (1.33 in ruins)
ExoM = 1.33 (1.00 in ruins)

Riptide NovaSv: T6 2+/3++
Fex always better (still .75)

Broadsides: T4 2+/5++ (same as terminators)
ExoS is always better (usually 75% better)
ExoM is better unless the Terminators are in ruins

Drones: T4 4+/4++
Fex always much better (2-3 times better)

Wraithknight: T8 3+
Fex = .5 always
ExoS = 1.33 (.89 area, .67 ruins)
ExoM = 1.0 (.67 area, .5 ruins)




We need to remember that these were picked to be the best case scenario for the Exocrine. Yet most of these, the Fex does as well or better than the Exo.

Lets look further at the rest:

Wraithknight: The Exo is 'better', but really they both kind of suck. Even if the WK is never in terrain, it will take all game to kill it, and if in terrain, you will never kill it. Taking an Exo because of a wraithknight seems like a mistake.

Broadsides: The Exo seems better in this case, except for three points. 1) The BSides will be in the back of his deployment zone, so unlikely you will get there, and if you do, it will be while moving, so BS3 2) Since they are sitting in back, there is a good chance they will be in ruins, making the fex just as good as the moving Exo. 3) they will likely have drones with them, which the Fex is *much* better at dealing with.

Terminators: If your meta has a bunch of termintors, without SS/TH, then Exo might be a good choice for you. If they use even a token SS for tanking, you will want the Fex instead.

Riptide: The Exo I think does credible damage to a Riptide to make it a reasonable choice for dealing with riptides, at least if you can be stationary. If they use the Nova for the 3++ save it becomes a joke. But otherwise probably take it out in 2-3 turns.


So, there we are. From all the suggestions I got and thought of, the Exo is a decent and better choice against Riptides if they don't get their 3++ save, and against Terminators if none of them have storm shields.

And that is from the 'prime target' units. Based on this, I really find it a hard choice to recommend an Exo over a Fex.


Exo does have 1 more W, Fex is 20pts cheaper and much more strength

[WestRider]

The Exocrine also has a larger threat radius while moving, but that cuts it down to "not much better" in most cases. Then there's the ability to drop a Large Blast if someone clumps up.

But even with those caveats, I think the Fex is probably the better choice. GW just overprices low AP in a lot of situations, making torrent fire usually the better option.

[gigasnail]

I've been very underwhelmed by my exo's. If we had access to divination, maybe different story but that's somewhat futile to consider at this point.

[Hive Bahamut]

I only ever intended to have 1. We should know as a cover reliant army how common that cover saves are. That being said, I think there is some merit in being the only S7 plasma that doesnt get hot. Also, it really makes marines think twice about cover instead of it being something in the way. Something with that big of a grin can't be that bad. Haha.

Brainfex miles ahead for overwatch and fliers too. Now that I think about it you could probably compare an exo and haru against a fex and they still come out gold.

[gigasnail]

Hausperex kind of bad though, against any reasonable standard.

[Squire]

Interesting numbers, nice one core

[brassangel]

The issue I have is in actual game play. In 21 games with the new book, I've killed what feels like 30 points of stuff with Daddafexes. Everything gets their saves against his guns, and he's 1 wound easier to bring down. He also HAS to move around to get within his 18" threat bubble.

Most deployment zones start 24" from each other, and once the Exocrine is in range, he can pretty much hide the rest of the game. I have spent countless games pie-plating huge holes in the enemy, or 6-shotting big threats off the board. He usually doubles, or even triples his points for me every game.

All with pretty standard rolling.

Feb 21, 2014 22:03:48 GMT gigasnail said:

Hausperex kind of bad though, against any reasonable standard.

Interesting. I've used him to kill Terminators, Nobs, Bikers, and every flavor of infantry I can imagine. He's 1 wound harder to kill than a Carnifex, gets an excellent AP shot before charging, then HoW, 4A on the charge, followed by additional attacks he generates (which he will get every time), and then recoups wounds. He's been an absolute meat-grinder for me, and he's in the much less crowded Elites slot.

Granted, the right army configuration and play style are required to take advantage of him, but he's hilarious once he hits. (NOTE: I've never had him not reach combat.)

[gigasnail]

He's a decent tarpitter.unit that'll take a minute.to kill that you pay a premium for. I'm glad you've had sucess with him, but i've had success with 5th edition chaos dreadnaughts.

That doesnt make them good, either.

Exocrine can do well if you somehow always.catch power armor units out.of.cover, and protect him from grav guns, etc.

[biomassbob]

That's interesting Brassangel. For me the dakkafex destroys a bunch of stuff in games. And in some games if the fex gets into CC then it can do a number on vehicles and some characters. I haven't tried the exocrine yet but am tempted.

[Magorian]

Beautiful analysis, coredump, thank you!

[Raven]

This is why I run both. The Exocrine does some damage turn 1 and gets focussed down by my opponent, the dakkafex brood moves up and is at full strength when it gets in range turn 2. I'd rather have a dead Exocrine that shot some things than a dead Carnifex that didn't do any damage. I also find the Exocrine quite useful in taking down or weakening problematic targets that only my Flyrants could get to otherwise. (And I like to play cautiously with my Flyrants)
So while the math suggests spamming Carnifices is the way, I suggest that taking both is a tactically superior option.

[gigasnail]

ok here's something funny i can't recall if it's been done up before. an exo costs 170 points, T6 with 5 wounds, 3+ save, puts out six S7 AP2 shots or the pieplate, it's BS3 unless you plant your butt somewhere (cover + venom, or, better yet, skyshield) with a good field of fire.

a brood of HG costs 165, and put out six S8 AP4 ignores LoS/ignores cover shots. 3 hive guard have the same toughness, a 4+ save and 6 wounds in the squad.

effective hits vs. meq, because if they see massed AP2 ranged coming yes they're going to be in cover if possible:
exo vs meq in cover @bs3: six shots, 3 hits. 2.5 wounds, after 5+ cover save it is 1.66 wounds.
exo vs meq in cover @bs4: six shots, 4 hits. 3.33 wounds, after cover save it is 2.22 wounds.
exo vs meq behind aegis @bs3: 1.25 wounds. 0.42 if they g2g.
exo vs meq behind aegis @bs4: 1.66 wounds, or 0.55 if they g2g.

HG shooting MEQ in whatever cover: 6 shots, 3 hit. 2.5 wounds, 0.833 wounds after armor saves. will also cause ID for those with FNP.

tl;dr: even after the nerf HG are still nearly as good (and in some cases better) than an exo at shooting what an exo is supposed to excel at shooting. things like scouts behind an aegis, they'll annihilate.

[Raven]

How is 0.833 dead marines "nearly as good" as 2.22? Besides, how does the Hive Guard fair against Bikes and Terminators?

[gigasnail]

it's twice as good as 0.42, for one. if i have a unit of guys behind an aegis or just in good cover (ruins give the same +2 cover save as an aegis if you g2g obscured by them, btw) that won't be getting an armor save from a mass of AP3 or better, and i have either invested wargear in them or need them alive to score, then yes i'm likely to g2g because you're not killing anything if they do, and they can just snap shot you when they get up next turn.

HG impaler cannon will wound on a 2+ on bikes, same as the plasma, and will ignore their jink save, or any cover saves so just the armor. exo's kill % will be the same as a marine in cover, so 1.66 at BS3, 2.22 at BS4, lower if the unit turbo boosts, like 1.33 for bs3 and 1.8 for bs4. exo will be better in most cases vs. bikes though because a bike can't g2g.

terminators, exo's always better. i can't think of a situation where HG would do better, at least.

there is the ignores LoS aspect as well, but that's largely impossible to quantify. against high-strength low AP weaponry, your HG have more wounds than the exo and can hide behind LoS blockign terrain (or your friendly local tfex) to negate it completely, and are easier to hide in general. the exo shoots until he dies, while the HG brood can be whittled down every 2nd wound.

dont' get me wrong, i'm not saying that HG are clearly pwnzorz your exocrines. i am saying it's a lot closer than it might look like at first, especially with the proliferation of xenos armies.

food for thought as i was messing with my list was all that was. my single exo has yet to do much of significance. i think i need 2 of them to do much (like many things). funny enough, i think they'd go well with a brood of HG...

[toonarmy]

Interesting analysis all round i would say!

Giga another bonus for the hive guard is that they don't sit in the HS slot. Elites are a little less crowded than before so there may be a spare slot for HG in many peoples lists.