A potential group project for casual gamers

[ilovethenids]

I'm pasting most of what I said as a reply to a post in its own thread because I'd like to see what people think of my idea.

I started getting into 40K in fall of 2004. I was rather displeased with the models and most of the units, but when I got a Tyranid battleforce, the new 'nid codex, and since I had my party at Games Workshop I got a fully painted Hive Tyrant with ST and a venom cannon (at the time I didn't really understand how sucky they were). As I read through the new codex and saw all of the AMAZING possible combinations of weapons, biomorphs, etc. I was SO happy. I felt like the rules and stats of the units actually MATCHED what the creature was supposed to be like/was supposed to do. For example, the carnifex at that time was still perfectly fine being an exclusively close combat beast - in one game I annihilated a unit of 12 Necron warriors with him in the first round of combat, then he went on to decimate the nearby monolith. To sum it up, you were able to make pretty much ANYTHING in the codex work - it wasn't detrimental to have a large variety of units. Now, if you don't have X or Y or Z in your army, you're basically guaranteed a loss.

The biggest problem to me is that the design overall of the last two codexes has been the problem. For example, a Hive Guard are described as a "heavily armored gun beasts bound to extremely powerful symbiotic bio-weapons. Though they have no eyes, Hive Guard possess a weak telepathic ability that allows them to perceive through the senses of other Tyranids, giving them access to a wealth of targeting information that would overwhelm even the most sophisticated technological cogitator (Codex: Tyranids, 6th edition, page 46)." Yet, their ballistic skill is only 3. If their telepathic connection that aids in hitting their target, WHY aren't they more accurate? The whole point of the rules is to make the creature function in the game the way it's described as functioning in text. Tyranids are always described as being terrifying to face on the battlefield, but in their current state they're pretty much a laughing stock.

More generally, I feel like the updates themselves don't reflect what the essence of the Tyranid race is supposed to be. At this point where a lot of the units are FUMAR, you basically have to use the exact same units ALL the time if you want to have any chance at winning. Part of what is so cool about tyranids is that each Hive Fleet uses slightly different tactics both in their mechanism of dviding and devouring prey worlds and in the strategies they use to overwhelm any resistance on a planet's surface. Also, the real big theme with tyranids is ADAPTABILITY. One of the greatest things about the massive set of potential biomorphs we could use in the 4th Ed dex is that you could use the same creature in very different ways depending on who you were facing. Honestly what I've always thought would be the best thing to do when it came to releasing new Tyranid material was to give all of the units improvements that represent them "adapting" to overcome the new weapons/units that they have to face on the battlefield. For example, if they were facing a lot of relatively high-strength, armor-piercing ranged weaponry, the new codex would give most units a higher toughness characteristic and potentially a better armor save. In the Hive Tyrant entry, it says "...the Tyranids can rarely be defeated the same way twice." Right now, our opponents can use the same strategy to defeat us time and time again, rather than what all of the background info would have one think.

I know this will probably sound crazy so I probably won't look into it any more, but why don't a bunch of experienced 40K players who enjoy and understand Tyranids just write up our own codex? It obviously wouldn't be allowed in any sort of official setting, but I'm sure you'd be able to find people who'd let you use those rules so long as the people involved in writing them made sure that the rules weren't overpowered or anything. I know that Tyranids and all that are registered trademarks of Games Workshop, but I'm pretty sure it's legal since we wouldn't be getting money for it (unless we sent the draft to Games Workshop as a proposal, but that's about as likely as Half Life 3) - I know that you can make fan films starring copyrighted characters so long as you're not selling them.

^I only suggest that because Games Workshop is NOTORIOUS for its poor communication with its fanbase. If we truly want to be SURE that we're going to have some quality rules that allow us to field any of the units listed in the codex and have them all be effective at SOMETHING, we have to take it upon ourselves. Yeah, they might wave a magic wand and fix all of the broken units with a little flick of their wrists, but there's no way of knowing if/when they'll do it. Isn't it better to be 100% positive that you've got a nice set of rules to play with instead of having your collection gather dust because you're waiting for that "magic codex" that will solve all our problems? Hey, if they DO manage to make everything workable in a later edition, I'd go right back to the official rules. What do you guys think of that idea?

[vampiremonkey]

Yes and this is WHY GW should listen to the gamers who keep them in jobs, many of us gamers are passionate about the hobby and we by and large have something alot of people dont..... its called an imagination!
What you and others are doing is really great . GW got it wrong really wrong with this codex. They must be stupid because so many people eagerly waited for this codex and would have spent lots of money if GW had done a good job instead GW shot themselves in the foot .
As it stands people like you and me and lots of others have a better idea of their chosen army than GW does ..... and thats just plain bad for a gaming company!
I hope you come up with some great fixes for the codex.
P.S in 3ed tyranids were so customizable it was awesome . Leaping gaunts with spine fists , flying gaunts with wings and scytals or rending claws.... it was so fun to play tyranids because it gave you the abillity to create your own tyranid beasts and your army was really unique- this is what im working on now .

[ilovethenids]

My curse in life has always been my ability to come up with what people often tell me are AMAZING ideas. While at first it sounds like a blessing, the problem is that all of my ideas require either skills sets that I don't have or are too expensive to start work on (and sometimes both). For example, I wrote a rulebook for a tabletop strategy game that I think would've been VERY fun to play, but I would need to be able to sculpt, cast, and mold many game pieces - something I am completely unable to do. I'd gladly give up my ability to come up with these ideas, because it's not worth the depressing fact that they'll never come to fruition.

At least with this kind of project, all I'd need to do is come up with rules/potentially new statlines for units that already exist and already have detailed background info that tells us what they are supposedly designed to do on the battlefield (as well as the characteristics that define the tyranids as a unique and incredibly dire threat to all lifeforms in the galaxy). Thing is, since I haven't played the game itself since 2005 or so, I am not intimately familiar with the dynamics of other army codexes nor with the actual game rules themselves.

It will essentially be the process that Games Workshop uses to make a codex, but we have a stronger drive to create a truly well-balanced set of rules that will be true to what the tyranids are supposed to be - voracious, terrifying beasts that can adapt to overcome any type of resistance they face. However, the game still needs to be fun and fair - a game where you always win because your units are ridiculously overpowered is just as boring and poorly designed as a game where you always lose. I will need people who are members of casual gaming groups to play-test these rules once we've got all of them. Every unit would have to be tested in a game, to make sure that it fills the role it was designed for. Also, the rules would have to be tested in different game sizes - the rules need to be just as effective at 2000 points as they are at 1000, or 750. I'd also like for the rules to be tested against every army (making an army list knowing only the race of your opponent, not the units they'll be fielding), so that we make sure that there's a way to make an effective Army List for any situation.

The first thing I'm going to work on is making sure that every unit type is useful in some situation. One of the main complaints about the previous two editions has been that unless you field certain units you were basically screwed, and there were some units that were overpriced at best and a downright laughing stock at worst (you ALL know what I'm referring to). The units that come to mind as the ones that need attention the most desperately are the Haruspex, Ripper swarms, and of course, everyone's favorite paperweight, the Pyrovore. Here are the basics that come to mind with the pyrovore, since I don't really know enough about rippers or the Haruspex to come up with any specifics.

Pyrovore:
The flamespurt needs improvement to be worth taking. I think giving it the Torrent special rule would a decent improvement in that regard. With S5 and AP4, I think that's pretty decent for a template weapon - giving it a higher strength or AP would be a bit too much in my opinion. Also, changing the Acid Maw special rule to what it used to be (model with Acid Maw ignores armor saves) would make it a threat in CC as well, combined with a higher WS, I, and A. Since a unit takes up an Elite slot, I think having a WS and I AT least equal to that of a space marine isn't too much to ask.

Anyone can feel free to post their ideas - the more, the merrier!

[vampiremonkey]

How about giving the pyro new weapon options such as
Stinger salvo
Cluster spines or
kit it out for dirct cc with lash wips !?
so you can swap out a flamer for new and tactical options
Or ........ you can get one as a unit upgrade for troop slots ......

[vampiremonkey]

In fact if GW wanted to sell more pyros
why didnt they make the pyro new weapon option with skyfire and IB hunt or lurk
They are tyranid space cows to begin with and i could see them munching away before unleashing shots at a flyer before going back to munching stuff.

[WestRider]

Honestly, I think Torrent and AP3 on its CC Attacks would be enough for the Pyrovore. Another possibility would be to have it be permanently under the effects of Onslaught, to represent the greater intelligence of the Weapon-Symbiote giving it the ability to fire while the main bulk of the creature focuses on moving.

[vampiremonkey]

Pyrovore
WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W3 I2 A2 Ld6 Sv4+
40 pts 3in a brood
Flamespurt weapon Range 18 or 24
S7 AP 2 Skyfire Assult 1 (bio plasma)
IB hunt or lurk
If this was the rules everyone would get at least a brood

[t⊗theark]

One thing that I think would at least makes the haruspex more characterful would be to say that it causes instant death against infantry without bulky (etc).

[vampiremonkey]

Lictor
same stats as new codex
same special rules as new codex
but with one more
Biological Assassin - assult on the turn it arrives
This suddenly makes them viable to use as they still have to survive overwatch
but gives them a well defined role
maybe points increase by +10 pts or leave as is.

[vampiremonkey]

Venomthrope
same stats as new codex
same special rules as new codex
but has option to take ranged weapon
at the same cost per model as warriors
venoms have BS3 but no option fon gun
Duh GW
same pts as codex entry

[vampiremonkey]

Genestealers
really ? 14pts really !?
Nah
8pts each 40pts for five
these guys are troops and have no guns in a shooting rules game
if they are going to be as they 'are' then make them cheap so people can use them non the less
another "duh GW"

[ilovethenids]

Jan 17, 2014 4:51:12 GMT vampiremonkey said:

Pyrovore
WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W3 I2 A2 Ld6 Sv4+
40 pts 3in a brood
Flamespurt weapon Range 18 or 24
S7 AP 2 Skyfire Assult 1 (bio plasma)
IB hunt or lurk
If this was the rules everyone would get at least a brood

I dunno, I feel like that kinda firepower would be a bit much for a single 40 point model. Bio plasma on a carnifex costs 20 points - having it included with increased range on a creature that costs 40 points is a bit much. I say that upping the initiative to 4, the WS to 4, and A to 3 sounds okay. The Onslaught rule idea could be cool.

As for giving the pyrovore alternate weapon options, I'd be hesitant. Normally i'd love to max customization, but as it is, it's kinda got a rather unique role - making it more shooty or full CC would just make it a strange looking warrior without synapse.

Concerning the venomthrope, I feel like giving it ranged capabilities wouldn't really fit its character.

I like the ID idea on the haruspex. I also was thinking that it could do something akin to what the Doom of Malan'Tai was able to do - with each unsaved wound it inflicts, it gains a wound, up to a maximum of 10. It would just need some rule tweaking or whatever to get it into assault.

I also have ideas for how to make the Spike rifle and Strangleweb actually useful. Give the spike rifle slightly longer range (24") and give it the Sniper special rule. Honestly I think it was probably originally intended to have the Sniper rule but they got too lazy to actually write it in there. That way you could have small units of gaunt "rangers" to draw a unit's fire (I don't think an opponent could resist what they think of as an easy kill) so you could close the distance with genestealers or lictors. Plus, with the Sniper rule they could actually target vehicles, although they'd probably be best suited to picking off smaller, isolated units. For the strangleweb, I think the obvious issue is that its S2 and, being a template weapon, you have to have the gaunt with the unique weapon right up in the line of fire. I think it should be a torrent weapon (so you can keep the gaunt in the middle of the unit so it doesn't get picked off before it can do something), and obviously increase its strength to 4. Based on the fluff, I think this would be a good special rule for the strangleweb:
Snare: When rolling to wound, roll against the target's unmodified strength. If the wound is successful, the model is "snared" and is reduced to I 1, WS1, and BS 0 until the end of the next Assault Phase. If a unit with models affected by this rule is assaulted, they cannot fire overwatch.

[vampiremonkey]

Well i was actually thinking bio plasmic like the exocrine stream shot but 1 shot

[nameless]

With the torrent on the pyrovores I'm not sure that does enough or not to give them a unique role. Three of them in a unit would certainly be interesting.

The hasperux is easy. Needs beast unit type, at least +1 to WS and A and something else for the mouth/tongue. Maybe your instant death is an option. I like my idea of a hit preventing over watch and giving assault grenades. Something along those lines.

[Threeshades]

Jan 17, 2014 4:37:12 GMT vampiremonkey said:

In fact if GW wanted to sell more pyros
why didnt they make the pyro new weapon option with skyfire and IB hunt or lurk
They are tyranid space cows to begin with and i could see them munching away before unleashing shots at a flyer before going back to munching stuff.

Yes and why don't they give carnifexes wings and make hormagaunts better genestealers?


Maybe because that is not the point of the unit. Pyrovores are supposed to be a close assault unit, they just suck at it.

There are a couple of ideas I have how tyranids would have been better, but I've seen it with the last codex. Everyone will want something different and have different ideas how a unit should be. A lot of people tried to write their own homebrew fixes, but everyone has completely different ideas.