Revised Opinin of Codex after 13 games

[gman25639]

Even in 5th ed. codex I didn't have much issue with warriors being ID'd because all the guns with enough strength to do so were too busy firing at my Mawloc, Tyrannofex, Tervigon, Swarmlord, Shellrant, Trygon Prime, and Carnifex. In larger games I could put all of these guys on the table and the warriors were typically free to go abput their business with little more than bolters and the like coming their way.

[chuckles]

Jan 14, 2014 19:18:24 GMT topaxygourouni said:

You don't. The point of the initial question is not if a warrior is best than a longfang. they don't have a single thing in common, being that their role in combat, their damage potential/survivability or any other parameter whatsoever. The initial question was: "Is the warrior a better unit with the new book, regardless if there are things like longfangs or not out there?" Given the fact that his rules haven't changed, the only way to answer this question is to find his role in the list in the new book and see if it fits better than the old one.

In my opinion, with the increased need for synapse, our -probably temporary- ability to use the defense line and the quad gun, the nerfing of the tervigon and the overall reduction in army cost, fielding 3 warriors with a heavy weapon for 100 pts is not a waste of points, whereas in the previous book it would be.

The whole "you can't compare things across codices!" schtick is what gave us monstrous creatures that were measurably worse yet more expensive than those in other codices for no compensation before now. As long as we have to play games against armies from other codices there has to be some mechanism by which you can compare things from one book to another.

Perhaps you're right and warriors are now a worthwhile investment given the situation you have laid out, but if that's the case then frankly it's a pretty damning indictment of the codex given that they have essentially had to strong-arm us into using a unit which you yourself, and really anybody you care to ask about it, admit is subpar rather than making that unit actually desirable.

[chuckles]

Jan 14, 2014 19:36:41 GMT gman25639 said:

Even in 5th ed. codex I didn't have much issue with warriors being ID'd because all the guns with enough strength to do so were too busy firing at my Mawloc, Tyrannofex, Tervigon, Swarmlord, Shellrant, Trygon Prime, and Carnifex. In larger games I could put all of these guys on the table and the warriors were typically free to go abput their business with little more than bolters and the like coming their way.

If I didn't put it in bold I'm honestly scratching my head as to why your opponent bothered shooting them first.

[gman25639]

Because they are more of a threat than the warriors. It's like if you are at war with another country and they have 2 bases, one with nukes and one with tanks. both are a threat, but you obviously kill the nukes first. same deal here. and shooty warriors are decent at the back of the army with barbed strangler for backfield synapse and fire support.

[Silegy]

Jan 14, 2014 14:38:39 GMT topaxygourouni said:

Also the army is faster. Enough faster perhaps that it may actually give the opponent one turn less shooting in some fronts.

What is your source on this? I don't think it is the codex.

[topaxygourouni]

Jan 14, 2014 20:50:43 GMT Silegy said:

Jan 14, 2014 14:38:39 GMT topaxygourouni said:

Also the army is faster. Enough faster perhaps that it may actually give the opponent one turn less shooting in some fronts.

What is your source on this? I don't think it is the codex.

+3" for hormas and fleet for the monsters is enough.

[sunnyrobert]

Thanks jackedup for the post...

So it does seem from your point of view that after some playing, there are some strength in the nids after all that wasnt so obvious before...

Which back my theory (which i mentioned in other posts) to try it out first....things come out when actually playing the new dex....

Not saying that the codex is much better than before but on the same line to say that its not as bad as some people thought...

Sooo for me thats encouraging but ill need to do this as well as the codex isnt here yet although ive made some interesting lists already...

Cheers and please keep posting your actual experiences on using the new dex....

[coredump]

Jan 14, 2014 20:58:20 GMT topaxygourouni said:

Jan 14, 2014 20:50:43 GMT Silegy said:

What is your source on this? I don't think it is the codex.

+3" for hormas and fleet for the monsters is enough.

HGaunts are about 2" per Run faster, and the same if you want to assault. IOW, not that much different, and the same cost if you want TS/AG

FLeet adds a whopping 0.75" on the Run, and 1.5" on the Charge. That is not 'enough' to make us faster... Jump packs, drop pods, transports, flying transports.... those make you faster.

[coredump]

Jan 14, 2014 19:41:43 GMT chuckles said:

Perhaps you're right and warriors are now a worthwhile investment given the situation you have laid out, but if that's the case then frankly it's a pretty damning indictment of the codex

This.

I *am* thinking about running warriors... and they are no better than they were last codex; and some of the upgrades are even more.

Warriors did not get better, the rest of the troops got worse, and IB got down right debilitating.

The fact that we are even looking at warriors is an indication of how much weaker our army has gotten.

[infornography]

I think a basic unit of warriors with devourers or deathspitters and one with a barbed strangler is worth their points. Barely. And they can provide relatively durable synapse if you are careful with placement.

I intend to make use of a firestorm redoubt to expand their synapse footprint and keep them safer.

[jackedup]

Jan 14, 2014 15:31:08 GMT maista said:

jackedup

Did you, by any chance, face the old 5th nemesis Grey Knight in one of your games?
I got the feeling that the transitional 6th ed. respite could be over and those guys may be at our throad again.
Any experience on that?


cheers

'Fraid not, Grey Knights players are rare in these parts. Are they usually a bring issue for 'Nids?

[infornography]

Grey knights were never that big an issue for me. Shadow in the warp dealt nicely with their psyker powers and MCs mowed them down in droves in melee. Bro banners were an issue, but I just make them the target of tarpit units and shooting.

With our new codex I think we will make mincemeat out of them. Nearly every unit in their dex will have it's leadership dropped when within 12" of our new necessarily ubiquitous synapse. We will also be able to bring enough nasty flyers to wreck their birds reliably. I think they will be our easiest matchup now.

[N.I.B.]

From 3++

Shadow in the Warp is just -3Ld now. Mathematically, Ld10 psykers are 58% to pass rather than 50%, Ld9 ones are 41% rather than 37%, and Ld8 ones are 27% rather than 26%. Worse in pretty much every case, but by fairly small percentages for the most part (Ld10 being the big one) and since everyone else's psychic defenses got nerfed hard, I think we can count our stars that it came out as well as it did. The biggest change is actually that Perils don't happen any more often anymore, which was a huge deterrent for most folks. However, there is a rather important upside here: SitW now just straight-up lowers the leadership value of psykers in range- it's not just for psychic tests. This is actually, all in all, probably a buff to the ability.

[jackedup]

Don't forget if you have the Deathleaper, you can nerf their Ld even more!

[halvar]

To me the bounding leap change doesn't make my troops or army faster. Before we could spawn termagaumts effectively almost seven inches in front of our tervigon before movement making them actually able to make a first turn charge, in theory. I never tried it but alot of my opponents made mistakes about my chargerange in turn two which I doubt will happen now. The loss of the more expensive yet worse drop pod doesn't exactly help the army going faster. And then there's the units that were fast before that now have to halt themselves so they won't be outside synapse range. Sure, this was the case before aswell but atleast then you didn't stop for a whole turn eating your buddies. In case you didn't figure it out I'm mostly thinking about raveners although gargoyles could fit the description aswell with careless deployment and focus fire.

As for the warriors being better because the meta has changed that was actually true before aswell so that point is moot. And as always, local meta varies.

I really want my book now, i hate reading things from others.