Looking for "Model inflicts hits" rule

[glassiya]

Got in a little argument here with party of pretty block-headed guys.

We were arguing over Necron Mindshackle Scarabs, and the point of them causing model to deal d3 hits with specific strength and special rules, not actually Attack itself. I keep comparing this with every ability I could remember, which revolves about the same concept of "n hits with m strength, o Ap and p special rule". Problem is, most rules I do find are saying about "suffering the wound", not "inflicting it". And while the concept is still pretty much the same, these guys just won't stop screaming, that these hits from Scarabs are actually some kind of magical Close-Combat Attacks somehow, which do use Smash and all similar rules.

So, if anyone remembers a rule, which says about model inflicting some hits on other model - please remind me of that. Cause I'm rapidly approaching to a loss of non-abusive language.

[Jabberwocky]

IB feed.

Check out the mysterious forests in BRB too. Brainleaf frond has you shooting yourself.

[coredump]

Perhaps if you could clarify what the discussion is about. I am not sure what you are trying to argue...

[Morollan]

The rules for MSS seem pretty clear. The victim "inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee
weapons".

What exactly is the issue here?

[glassiya]

Jan 14, 2014 15:38:26 GMT Morollan said:

The rules for MSS seem pretty clear. The victim "inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee
weapons".

What exactly is the issue here?

I see that.

Guys just keep insisting, that these aren't hits, as rule clearly says, but full-fledged Close Combat Attacks, which do use model's rules for these, like MC's Smash, for example. Not weapon's - model's rules.

And I really grew tired from all this arguing.

[coredump]

Well, the FAQ does say it can use the ID ability of a Force Weapon, making the bearer roll the Ld check....

[glassiya]

Jan 15, 2014 3:58:01 GMT coredump said:

Well, the FAQ does say it can use the ID ability of a Force Weapon, making the bearer roll the Ld check....

Which is an rule of weapon. Not psyker himself.

Scarabs cause model to deal d3 hits with specific strength and specific special rules, as most of similar rules that cause damage do. Strength is one of a model controlled, and special rules are taken from it's close combat weapon. That's pretty much all.

[coredump]

Yeah, but the psyker must take a Ld test to 'activate' the force weapon.

Not saying it is concrete proof....

[glassiya]

Yeah, but the psyker must take a Ld test to 'activate' the force weapon.

Not saying it is concrete proof....

or he must take T test if struck with CSM black mace to survive.
Not like this changes anything.

[coredump]

Different.. One is a 'voluntary' action to activate the weapon, the other is an involuntary action as a response to taking damage.

What it shows is that MSS can force a target to do something besides just swing the weapon.

[Jabberwocky]

Force weapons also require warp charge which is character dependant.

[toonarmy]

Smash is an ability and the rule states you can benefit from abilities that a model has. The question for me would be... if they role a D3 and get 3 attacks can they smash 3 times or do they half this (rounding up) and make 2 smash attacks.

Similarly activating a force weapon is an ability so this can be used.

I also play Necrons and this hasn't come up that often for me but i think the rules seem pretty clear, unless I'm missing the argument!?!?

[Morollan]

Jan 15, 2014 14:59:26 GMT toonarmy said:

Smash is an ability and the rule states you can benefit from abilities that a model has.

That's not what the rule says though. As quoted earlier, the rule actually says (emphasis mine):

These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice).

Smash is not an ability of the weapon, it's an ability of the model/unit. This is muddied somewhat by the FAQ answer regarding Force Weapons but we cannot take that as carte blanche permission to use any and every ability of the victim against itself.

[coredump]

I concur on the 'muddled' part....

[Morollan]

Jan 15, 2014 16:07:19 GMT coredump said:

I concur on the 'muddled' part....

I agree it's not clear but I still think the rule prevents use of a models abilities rather than a weapons. After all, a psyker does not have the ability to ID someone without the force weapon so it's fairly reasonable to agree that this is simply an example of using a weapon ability.