Why I think many of us are upset. Tell me if I am right.

[gloomfang]

I posted this to Dakka, but I thought I should share it here. I wonder if other people here feel the same way I do. Its not that I don't think that the new codex is full of fail, its just not right and it just did things that made me not like it right of the bat...

1) The last codex had a lot of units that had no models. We are used to this and kit bashed and converted away like we always do. I now have a Doom that I can probably use as a Zoen and a Parasite that I might pass off as a shrike if I do some more work on it. I also have 3 custom built spore pods that I poured a few hours into each. Those are all gone from the codex. We basically wasted all that time, money and effort.

2) On top of that one of our favorite units (Ymgarl stealers) that had a lot of flavor and cool rules are gone. That is another batch of models that we spent time and money on sitting on the shelf. Yes we can use them as normal stealers, but a lot of us have normal stealers already anyway.

3) The concept of a fast rushing tide of claws and teeth is dead. We are officially the slowest army out of the entire 40K Universe. We have NO transports, NO drop pods and while we do have deepstrike on some units and we have our FMCs the vast majority of our army is forced to slog it across the board while hoping for good dice rolls.

4) There are army wide exclusions that make sense fluff wise, but are not balanced out game mechanic wise. We have no allies and we cannot pick out of the BRB for powers for ANY of our psykers for example. We also have no ground based anti-air and one of our flyers can’t even shoot other flyers.
5) There is a big feeling that people who loved CC and having the best CC army have been patted on the head and told that “Its all about the guns baby!”

6) There have been several across the board nerfs that I can understand speed up play. But it comes at the cost of increasing risk to a silly level. What used to be 3 rolls to get the Warp Lance off, 3 to hit and 3 DtW are now down to 3 to-hit rolls and one roll each for Perils and DtW (and it was nerfed to AP2). A lot of units counted on Scytal re-rolls to be viable and no amount of “But there cheaper!” takes away the sting. Synapse went from “good to have a unit in it” to “You better not get out of it or very bad things will happen!” Right because vanguard units like Lictors needed another nerf (but the points went down!)

At the end of the day Nids will be competitive and will win games. I have no doubt about it. At TTH we already have lists underway to Mathhammer with the information we have as of right now. There is at least 2-3 builds that look promising. But they don’t feel “Niddy”, they feel like some other army. The term Space Skaven has come up more than once. And I don’t know how they can fix that.

[Inquisitor Stingray]

I think what's grinding my gears about this codex is how very much the same it appears to be to the 5th edition codex. It very much seems to have followed the same trend with having a selective few good/borderline cheesy models compensating for an overall shoddy internal balance. From gathering the rumors I'm also very much missing some general Niddy special rule that will make us stand out. Sure, we have Synapse, as we have had since time immemorial and while it is very much a cool mechanic, it's not exactly fresh. Meh Psychic Powers and blergh Warlord Traits doesn't help.

On top of that there doens't seem to have been any creative or interesting work arounds our weaknesses. I'm glad we didn't see any more vehicle-monsters, but things like Deep Striking, Outflanking and similar rules seem to be a thing of the past. The only potential saving grace, as far as I can tell, is the Trygon Tunnel and Lictor Trail now actually work.

There just so many missed opportunities. Fixing the Venom Cannon, making interesting biomorphs, spicing up deployment options, allowing for more mutable statlines. None of that seems to have made it into the codex.

[beefythepug]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I expected more rules to help us get into close combat. I initially chose the Nid army since NomNomNoming my way across the universe was much more appealing than pew pew pewing.

If what we think we know of 6th ed is true... I feel like GW has basically flat out said "no you can't be different". But at the same time we lose much of our DS ability and don't have transports.

No faster units to close a 24" gap, instead buy an Exocrine. (buy moar models)
Misdirection and board control through sneaky deployment/spores? Nope start using Fast attack Crones/Harpys to distract enemy while foot sloggers cross board (buy moar models)
^---also to this point, no more Ymgarls
IB used to be useful at times, now its just a bad gamble.

The Crone is really our only unit that seemed like GW created a Niddy solution to fix our 5th ed Flyrant only AA option.

I'm still waiting to see if we get more deep strike help through something that's been overlooked, would be real nice to have Lictor's replace spores, though I think it was a rumor that said they could arrive via infiltrate on T1 and assist with DS on T2? more reliable DS and a unit that can move and hopefully do something. Still depends on if our codex units are able to DS at all, not like a brood of devilgants can "take a lictor" lol.

Perhaps using Lictors to precision strike Mawlocs could be a "new"(meaning improved and worthwhile) strat? If Lictor lets us put it anywhere within 6".. Can we purposefully place mawloc so it bursts forth twice per the new rules? Well since I own 0 mawlocs or lictors, once again (buy moar models)

[chuckles]

I'd say you more or less got it. The whole thing smacks of unbelievable laziness on the part of the design team.

Personally I don't mind a codex that just tweaks things, as long as those tweaks add up to an improvement. That's what the 4th ed book worked out to and it suited me just fine. This is a step backwards. I very much doubt I will be spending any money on tyranids this time around.

[Davor]

Jan 8, 2014 20:18:34 GMT gloomfang said:

1) The last codex had a lot of units that had no models. We are used to this and kit bashed and converted away like we always do. I now have a Doom that I can probably use as a Zoen and a Parasite that I might pass off as a shrike if I do some more work on it. I also have 3 custom built spore pods that I poured a few hours into each. Those are all gone from the codex. We basically wasted all that time, money and effort.

I have to disagree with point 1. How did you loose all that time money and effort? Do you not go to movies? Do you not eat out? These are all one time events. How many games did you have with you Spore Pods? How many games did you have with DoM and PoM? Were these one time events as well?

While it sucks we can't use these units anymore, I am assuming we played with them more than 3 times. That is 3 times more than going to a movie which is not cheap, and going out to eat, which is not cheap as well.

I am sure you got your time, money and effort worth it with your Spore Pods, DoM and PoM.

[ragnarok]

I don't mind the change to instinctive behaviour. From what I can remember form 2nd when nids got their first codex in a WD lack of synapse was really bad.

I do miss pods. Won't if all the armies we should be the one dropping models on the enemies head, and the model should have been easy for GW to make.

The red to also agree with

[gloomfang]

Jan 8, 2014 21:39:59 GMT Davor said:

I have to disagree with point 1. How did you loose all that time money and effort? Do you not go to movies? Do you not eat out? These are all one time events. How many games did you have with you Spore Pods? How many games did you have with DoM and PoM? Were these one time events as well?

While it sucks we can't use these units anymore, I am assuming we played with them more than 3 times. That is 3 times more than going to a movie which is not cheap, and going out to eat, which is not cheap as well.

I am sure you got your time, money and effort worth it with your Spore Pods, DoM and PoM.

I have a pregnant wife and an autistic 4 year old. I do not go out to the movies. We rarely eat out and I get maybe 2 hours a week to work on my army. I get $20 a week in "Mad Money" to spend how I see fit and that includes things like sodas at work and snacks. I'm not broke, but I have a lot of medical expensiveness (hence why I disapered from the Hive for close to a year.)

I had 2 games with the Doom.

I had ZERO with the PoM (I was still painting the rippers).

I had 3 games with the spores.

Those models took me the better part of a year to get together and probably cost me about 2 months worth of pocket money.

If you have more time and disposable income then I can see why it is less of a big deal. I get to play maybe 8 games a year if I am lucky (hoping that will pick up this year to 12-16 games). There are a lot of people like me who love the game but don't have the time or money to spend on it like we used too. Its why a lot of my models are from younger years (1991-1998).

I have to have a hobby, but it hurts when things like this happen.

[mobugs]

Jan 8, 2014 22:05:42 GMT gloomfang said:

Jan 8, 2014 21:39:59 GMT Davor said:

I have to disagree with point 1. How did you loose all that time money and effort? Do you not go to movies? Do you not eat out? These are all one time events. How many games did you have with you Spore Pods? How many games did you have with DoM and PoM? Were these one time events as well?

While it sucks we can't use these units anymore, I am assuming we played with them more than 3 times. That is 3 times more than going to a movie which is not cheap, and going out to eat, which is not cheap as well.

I am sure you got your time, money and effort worth it with your Spore Pods, DoM and PoM.

I have a pregnant wife and an autistic 4 year old. I do not go out to the movies. We rarely eat out and I get maybe 2 hours a week to work on my army. I get $20 a week in "Mad Money" to spend how I see fit and that includes things like sodas at work and snacks. I'm not broke, but I have a lot of medical expensiveness (hence why I disapered from the Hive for close to a year.)

I had 2 games with the Doom.

I had ZERO with the PoM (I was still painting the rippers).

I had 3 games with the spores.

Those models took me the better part of a year to get together and probably cost me about 2 months worth of pocket money.

If you have more time and disposable income then I can see why it is less of a big deal. I get to play maybe 8 games a year if I am lucky (hoping that will pick up this year to 12-16 games). There are a lot of people like me who love the game but don't have the time or money to spend on it like we used too. Its why a lot of my models are from younger years (1991-1998).

I have to have a hobby, but it hurts when things like this happen.

I don't know about you, but I still plan to put together some friendly games where I plan to play with my PoM... I took the time to make one and damn it I want to play with his fun rules. He wasn't much of power unit to begin with, just seemed like a fun mechanic.

[Davor]

Jan 8, 2014 22:05:42 GMT gloomfang said:

Jan 8, 2014 21:39:59 GMT Davor said:

I have to disagree with point 1. How did you loose all that time money and effort? Do you not go to movies? Do you not eat out? These are all one time events. How many games did you have with you Spore Pods? How many games did you have with DoM and PoM? Were these one time events as well?

While it sucks we can't use these units anymore, I am assuming we played with them more than 3 times. That is 3 times more than going to a movie which is not cheap, and going out to eat, which is not cheap as well.

I am sure you got your time, money and effort worth it with your Spore Pods, DoM and PoM.

I have a pregnant wife and an autistic 4 year old. I do not go out to the movies. We rarely eat out and I get maybe 2 hours a week to work on my army. I get $20 a week in "Mad Money" to spend how I see fit and that includes things like sodas at work and snacks. I'm not broke, but I have a lot of medical expensiveness (hence why I disapered from the Hive for close to a year.)

I had 2 games with the Doom.

I had ZERO with the PoM (I was still painting the rippers).

I had 3 games with the spores.

Those models took me the better part of a year to get together and probably cost me about 2 months worth of pocket money.

If you have more time and disposable income then I can see why it is less of a big deal. I get to play maybe 8 games a year if I am lucky (hoping that will pick up this year to 12-16 games). There are a lot of people like me who love the game but don't have the time or money to spend on it like we used too. Its why a lot of my models are from younger years (1991-1998).

I have to have a hobby, but it hurts when things like this happen.

Oh I know what you are going through. I have a disabled daughter. She is almost an adult now. It is tough to raise them, extra challenging. I don't have much gaming myself. I only had a few weeks to game as well. I don't even get "mad money", I am so jealous.

What I tried to make, is while yes it sucks our hard works for convertions and a few games we played with them, hopefully we had fun with them. To really complain about price I find kinda of moot. We still go out and do things, be it "mad money" or going to movies, eating out or what not, they are all still one shot purchases or events which pales in comparison to what GW did.

I guess having a disabled daughter, my point of view changed when I didn't before. I guess for me, I try not to bother with the "petty" stuff anymore, no matter how infuriating things get or what GW does. I use to take it to heart for what ever reason, and finally found myself again, that what ever GW does, it pales into comparison of what me and my family had to go through.

Sorry if my previous comment seemed flippet. That wasn't my intent. Just trying to say there is more important things to life than complaining about small things.

Just curious, do you let your kid play with you? Even though my daughter doesn't really understand the rules, for a while she just loved rolling dice, not matter what it means. She not so interested in it now, but loved doing it when she was young. I also tried to teach her math with the dice. I would get her to count them, and she could count a bit from it. I should see if she would be interested in it again. At least some good is coming out of the negativity.

Thanks.

[gozolve]

several units are redundant or in the case of the pyrovore unplayable. There are several BROKEN rules that by all accounts have not been fixed. there is NO EXCUSE to not fixing Trygon tunnels.

[Davor]

Jan 8, 2014 22:31:18 GMT gozolve said:

several units are redundant or in the case of the pyrovore unplayable. There are several BROKEN rules that by all accounts have not been fixed. there is NO EXCUSE to not fixing Trygon tunnels.

While I am trying not to be a Negative Nancy, I agree. There is NO EXCUSE to not fixing some of the rules.

[fragile]

The biggest issue that I see is the complete lack of balance. Tau were balanced by adding a sturdy gunsuit and skills to help them avoid melee, JSJ / Supporting Fire. Eldar gained nice abilities like Bladestorm and Distort to compete with the MCs they were facing and Battle Focus to help keep their fragile selves out of the line of fire.

None of our weaknesses have been addressed. Indeed they have been made even worse with this dex. I think alot of the problem is that we Tyranid players are crazy or stupid enough to have kept buying models even though the majority are subpar. This codex screams of a blanket reduction in ability to simply make their new models more attractive. Things like the Riptide and WK did it for Tau/Eldar. GW is hoping that we will all run out and buy the new models since they are so powerful. But yet they are not, and they bring with them suffering to the rest of the Swarm.

The inability to present a threat to the enemy, a distraction unit of something in a Pod, whether it was the Doom, Gants, or Pyrovores(god forbid), makes us nothing more than walking target priority. We lost any ability to protect our MCs with Iron Arm to slow prevelance of high S shooting that comes with Tau/Eldar. Losing IA also lost us the ability to protect from the numerous ID weapons and abilities out there. Sure we have more monsters to play with, but since they die easier, there is no gain.

IMHO I dont think the designers play the game very well and completely fail to playtest outside their rather small group of 7. One of whom probably dominates the others with Nids and every screams that they need to be nerfed.

[Kwodd]

What has me so mad is the mass removal of units, in addition to them not fixing what needed help and nerfing what was good.

[gloomfang]

He is still to little and his communication skills are subpar. I still have to glue the 6 models I left on my desk overnight together. A 4 year old hurling the old SK fexs is a scary sight

I rarely get into the NA battle Bunker to say hi and I live 10 min down the road because he tends to grab models and have meltdowns.

[Davor]

You know why we are upset? Because we believed the rumour mongers and WE ALL GOT TROLLED.