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Post by chuckles on Jan 10, 2014 1:43:30 GMT
Alrighty then, time to bring you back to reality. Let's see the units new vs old: 1. Dakka Flyrant got 30 pts cheaper, same stats. Lost re-rolls from scything talons, Old Adversary way worse, lost access to armoured shell. Comes out slightly worse, though still vital to our army's function2. Tervi got worse and got 30 pts up. Yep. Massive nerf3. Trygon prime, old one eye, nobody cares, nobody used them anyways. Those of us who remember GW promising everything would be viable care.4. Deathleaper got much better. Swarmlord slightly worse. Granted.5. Hormagaunts are cheaper and better (+3" run). Run distance averages out about the same if they lost bounding leap, if they didn't they still suck because run doesn't get you into combat and they whither on the vine when shot at6. Termagants are cheaper and can mix match guns at will. And yet are still fodder/last turn objective grabbers only7. Warriors are the same with more options. But will still die in seconds, and they've lost the ability to mix and match weaponry. Pretty much nothing else matters really8. Genestealers are better (ap5 attacks). I just spat sprite all over my monitor so thanks for that. 4 pts to get scything talons and get no bonus of any kind. Still can't assault into cover without becoming expensive Init 1 assault marines with guardsman save. Still can't assault from reserves. Still not remotely threatening9. Ripper swarms got 2 pts up. For no reason. Got worse, not that they were in any way useful before10. Hive guards 5 pts up with opt for bonus haywire if you like. I consider that better than before. They're also BS3 now. Not an improvement, could potentially have been nerfed harder 11. Venomthropes got better and cheaper. Still got no way to hide from lots of high strength, low AP ignores cover gunfire, won't last past turn 2 against a competent opponent12. pyrovores got better (even though they are still worthless, I will give you that). Thank you13. Lictors got cheaper and got infiltrate. Lost shrouded, still can't fight out of a wet paper bag or do anything the turn they arrive. 14. Haruspex + exocrine we did not have before, better now that we do. Marginally at best, and even that strikes me as charitable in the extreme15. Zoanthrope: Practically the same, now has one more spell to boot. Perhaps more easy to deny all of the attack at once. Unknown point cost. Overall pretty much the same as before. No spores, new psychic rules mostly bone them, undeniably worse now16. Gargoyles. Unknown rules. New blinding venom is useless17. Harpy: pretty much the same? Yep- still a waste of an FOC slot you could take gargoyles in18. Hive crone. Pretty good and we did not have it before. Not good at all19. Raveners. More or less the same as before. now with bonus ap5. IB nerf makes them really bad, and they were bad before20. Shrikes. More or less the same. Yup- still useless21. Spore mines. So much better it's not even funny. How's that?22. Sky slashers. Who cares? I do, see above23. Biovores. Much better with the new mines. Still not clear how mines are "so much better it's not even funny". It's not funny at all24. Carnifex. 120 pts fex. Period. Still not actually impressive when it goes head to head with the stuff other people get25. Mawloc. 30 pts less, much better deep strike. One of the few units to have unequivocally improved26. Trygon. More or less the same. Lost rerolls, got slightly cheaper. So worse then27. Tyrranofex. Outrageously better. 75 pts less, torrent flamer. Still rubbish thoughLost units: Parasite: Who cares? Still meDoom: That hurt indeed. Biomorphs: Scything, crushing got worse. Rending claws Not really + adrenal got better Marginally, now more expensive in case anything can actually be said to have improved overall. Toxin same Fine. Got new bonus biomorphs, even though they are meh Fantastic news. still more options than the old book But mostly bad options, so not worth putting in. Warlord traits: (not sure if you can still pick from the brb) One more tree of choice than the previous book. Mostly terrible. You can still pick from the BRB, and you'd be mad not to.Powers: With the exception of Iron Arm, the new powers seem stornger than the old ones. The old ones were woeful. Loss of Biomancy with no compensation= flashing neon sign saying "will die to simple shooting" above MC heads. Some of the new ones are okay, mostly not great, no substitute for Biomancy. So yeah, overall the new book is way better than the old one. It's just not about tervigon any more It's not about the tervigon any more true, but nothing else improved to take its place. I can live with that You say that but.... What's kind of tragic about this is that last time out I was in the same boat you're in now, trying to defend the new book. I learned better. I suspect you will too.
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Post by gozolve on Jan 10, 2014 1:47:54 GMT
Does getting old one eye allow carnifexs to be troop choices? Just asking.. nope. He is not really changed.
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Post by vampiremonkey on Jan 10, 2014 2:23:33 GMT
Just thinking but the Haruspex had acid spray/jets in old epic game and the Exocrine had long range and fired chitin shells with "slime fungus" and could take out titans - i kid you not It seems GW didnt want to give us what they were originally designed to have. Oh well i did read on another thread that pyrovores hit every unit on table when they blow up because of miswritten rule , is this true? if it is pyrovore will be like fireworks
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 10, 2014 2:29:12 GMT
Let's see the units new vs old: 1. Dakka Flyrant got 30 pts cheaper, same stats. tyrants: lost biomancy, pretty much required to keep it alive since no invul save. lost ability to take 2+ save. HC/OA nerfed. it is 30 points cheaper though, this is good. still our best/only HQ.2. Tervi got worse and got 30 pts up. nerfed into oblivion. if it was just a 30 point increase, would have been cool. 195 base would have been fine for a huge T6 3+/no invul save model, considering all it did. it'd have still been good at a 40 point increase. now it does...nothing. no buff aura, lvl 1 psyker (so ROLL THE DICE, AND FORGE THAT NARRATIVE as you pray for your 1/6 shot at catalyst. at least dominion is primaris?), no counter attack, no LD10 for nearby bugs (yes, they're fearless but there is a lot more to LD than morale checks), no extra attacks with crushing claws, you cant' even get extra base attacks from having multiple sets of limbs, spawns can't move or assault (though they did change the timing, letting you outflank then spawn, good there), loss of biomancy (again, huge on a model with no invul save), now even more dangerous to nearby termagants. in fact, the best thing to do with them now is to take them as troops and outflank them as far away from the rest of your gants as possible. only it's 200 points or thereabout now, plus 150 minimum for the troop tax gants, on something that's only use is backfield synapse and scoring. yes, they're that bad, which, in a vacuum isn't of much consequence. things change and we adapt to new additions and new codexes. however, there was nothing to replace it with.3. Trygon prime, old one eye, nobody cares, nobody used them anyways. could have fixed them, and made them not suck. lost opportunity, but beside the point.4. Deathleaper got much better. Swarmlord slightly worse. swarmlord still awful, now more expensive, lost biomancy which was the only thing he had going. deathleaper would be viable, but there's that whole thing of him being a character killer with no real combat durability at all. hey, at least they have to snap shot at him before he eats a powerfist. very nearly usable, maybe some niche use. 5. Hormagaunts are cheaper and better (+3" run). hormagants are cheaper, but worse after loosing ST and OA buffs. they were awful before, cheaper and being nerfed didn't fix them.6. Termagants are cheaper and can mix match guns at will. this could be a bright spot, but their shooting is average (i.e. bad). devilgaunts were good when spored (which we lost) and in OA buff range. 8 points vs. 10 points, but lost a delivery system and the means to make them reliable. you can take a few to buff up the tervigon troop tax squad though, this is probably a good idea if you're using momma bugs still.7. Warriors are the same with more options. yes, awful. boneswords nerfed. no combining rending claws with boneswords to make them useful. prime has huge price increase for no conceivable reason.8. Genestealers are better (ap5 attacks). still overcosted and awful. 9. Ripper swarms got 2 pts up. rippers got a lot better, actually. no more Mindless rule. i still dunno they're worth a damn, but better.10. Hive guards 5 pts up with opt for bonus haywire if you like. I consider that better than before. nerfed to BS3, cost increase. we looked at haywire and it's kind of a wash unless your'e facing a lot of AV13-14. the addition of Ignores Cover instead of the useful mess we had before is nice, but the BS3, again coupled with loss of OA buffs is a serious nerf. 11. Venomthropes got better and cheaper. another bright spot. too bad that SM, tau, eldar, and CSM all have easy access to a lot of Ignores Cover weapons, and these are the most popular armies.12. pyrovores got better (even though they are still worthless, I will give you that). yup.13. Lictors got cheaper and got infiltrate. another potential bright spot, killed by 5+ save/T4/3W. if they were killier and could assault out of infiltrate, they could have been a must-have pathfinder counter. 14. Haruspex + exocrine we did not have before, better now that we do. hausperex(sp?) is really, really bad. exocrine is good, maybe really good. except it's huge with no invul save. this is a failing common to the army. also, it's a dedicated shooting platform with BS3 unless it sits still. this is annoying, but not too horrid as you'll generally walk/run one turn, then sit still in cover. hopefully. sure would be nice to have some OA with this one. 15. Zoanthrope: Practically the same, now has one more spell to boot. Perhaps more easy to deny all of the attack at once. Unknown point cost. Overall pretty much the same as before. again, nerfed hard but some bright spots. used to could take 6 different powers in a squad of 3, making them excellent support nodes with the flexibility to be podded in for tank smashing. now a full brood gets 2 powers, one of which is the lance/blast power (again, nerfed to AP2 but still good) and the other is a random roll on the NARRATIVE chart. only regular invul save in the codex. 16. Gargoyles. Unknown rules. still good, but blinding venom is somewhat different. 17. Harpy: pretty much the same? some buffs, big points drop. T5 and 4+ save means that it will likely die when introduced to a quad gun. better spore mine rules are a boost. i dunno that its point drop will justify its slot, but flying circus (2-3 flyrants, couple of harpies, couple of crones) is probably going to be one of the first tried/go-to builds. still cant' do anything to other fliers than VS them, venom cannon still kind of ass (but did get buffed, lost the -1 to damage chart but is still AP4 and (please do not swear)). 18. Hive crone. Pretty good and we did not have it before. new, so jury is out but T5, 4+ save, no invul, no vector dancer. same issue as harpy. drool cannon not torrent, meaning you have to be close to w/e you shoot it with. not optimal for a model with a 4+ save. S8 VS is good though. likely member of the first cool kids/flying circus club.19. Raveners. More or less the same as before. now with bonus ap5. ST are ap6. massive nerf with loss of rerolls. still no access to basic biomorphs, still bad armor save, still T4/3W. i want to love them, i have 12 and the model is cool. they're bad.20. Shrikes. More or less the same. had some niche use as character killers, nerfed now by cost increase and bonesword nerf, and were already bad. 21. Spore mines. So much better it's not even funny. agreed there, this could be a sleeper hit. 22. Sky slashers. Who cares? lost opportunity, but i digress23. Biovores. Much better with the new mines. some buffs. i had heard they were just blast now, not large blast, but i never saw the unit entry. if so, that's a significant hit on their utility, but they'll still be good with the new spore rules.24. Carnifex. 120 pts fex. Period. meh, at best. yes, cheaper, tail attack and HoW boost, not that these matter a lot. lost spores for dakka insertion. still a 4 wound, 3+ save model with no invul. only good weapon is medium/short range. at 90 points base i'd have called them cheap enough to be spammed and not care about the losses. they are neither durable nor very killy, they are just middle of the road and no longer massively overcosted.25. Mawloc. 30 pts less, much better deep strike. mawlock is a lot better and cheaper. now it hits vehicles on side armor with TftD, and will mishap when it doesn't kill what it lands on. still, can get the two S6 AP2 blasts. you just gonna full scatter, so watch landing on vehicles which you will only rarely kill (1/6 for pen, 1/3 for explode so 5% chance per hit = 10% chance to kill a rhino). 26. Trygon. More or less the same. Lost rerolls, got slightly cheaper. loss of rerolls, lower attacks, huge nerf. still an easily killed 3+ save monster.27. Tyrranofex. Outrageously better. 75 pts less, torrent flamer. this one is interesting. i love the model (minority, i know) and have always lamented the suck. huge points drop, still has that nice 2+ save, but now only fires 2 weapons (thorax swarm nerfed). could be good, but was it really necessary to nerf thorax swarm? is there any reason to actually take the biomorph on now? dunno. still only a T6, though it has a good armor save has no invul. grav guns and plasma will eat this guy up. rupture cannon still a joke. dedicate gun beast still BS3, though its best use is flamer carrier so it's mitigated somewhat (but makes rupture cannon and fleshborer hive even dumber). flamer is still just AP4, so marines laugh but the idea is to pile the wounds on. still, AP3 torrent would have made this guy a contender for real.Lost units: Parasite: Who cares? being gone is arguably worse than being in the codex.Doom: That hurt indeed. yup.Biomorphs: Scything, crushing got worse. Rending claws + adrenal got better. Toxin same. Got new bonus biomorphs, even though they are meh. still more options than the old book. lot of options, few of them will ever be taken. nerf to biomorphs in general (no combining). crushing claws are power fist cost with only a +1S. huge nerf. ST huge nerf. all around much worse.Warlord traits: (not sure if you can still pick from the brb) One more tree of choice than the previous book. more choice is good, but CARNIVOROUS FOREST, AWWWWW YEAH oh wait we have all city terrain, while my opponent just rolled something that isnt' totally unusable.Powers: With the exception of Iron Arm, the new powers seem stornger than the old ones. some fixes here. the maledictions are an improvement over how they were before (i.e. they're maledictions, no longer treated as shooting attacks, so are actually usable). being able to get warp lance on a flyrant is ace. having dominion as primaris is good, because having larger synapse bubble is good and the rest of your powers aside from catalyst are meh. catalyst is cool, granting FNP to two units. flyrants, tervigons and biomancy are what allowed nids to work in 6th, with 5/6 of the powers being good, and 3 of them being really good coupled with being able to reliably get them. now, the power you NEED to have to make your MC somewhat survivable, you have a 1/6 chance of getting and the others are just..ok. this is a game changing nerf. the new powers are OK, if you ignore the other armies that still get access to BRB powers like biomancy and divination (hello, tigirius!). prescience would do a lot for nids. nope! we've got THE HORROR.So yeah, overall the new book is way better than the old one. It's just not about tervigon any more. I can live with that.
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 10, 2014 2:29:35 GMT
Does getting old one eye allow carnifexs to be troop choices? Just asking.. no.
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Post by topaxygourouni on Jan 10, 2014 3:13:55 GMT
Wierd thoughts: The new tyranid book has a million ways to ignore cover and another million ways to haywire. Could one make a list revolving around these two?
Hive guards, hive crones and electro grubs using haywire to bust open tincans, then biovores, hive guards(again) ,spore mines, psychic scream, mawlocs and tyrannofex to hit what was inside the tanks with no cover saves. Yes, marines will take armors, but xenos and IG won't. Then fill up the rest of the list with 5pt hormagaunts and flyrants?
I actually think hive guards are better now. Old hive guards was 6 shots, 4 hits, maybe no cover, str 8. Most often than not would just scratch the paint of a serious tank. New hive guards: 6 shots, 3 hits, str 8, 100% no cover save and after that resolves, an extra 3 dice for a hull point on a 2+. This is actually a guaranteed vehicle kill now.
Some other cute ideas: > Flyrant/crone next to a venomthrope. Against the quad gun, choose to dive, gain 3+ dive save.
> Warriors with venomthropes behind hormas. 3+ cover for the warriors. Even if the enemy targets the venom first, that's 3 successful hits of missile launchers to kill the venomthrope in the first place. That's 3 missiles that did not hit the warriors. Effectively 3 warriors alive. I call that a victory. Will still die to a wave serpent though.
> Biovores actually got 3 wounds now. this is a serious upgrade to their longevity that stupid turn 1. If only the venoms had 3 wounds too...
> Deathleaper + Mawloc. Infiltrate deathleaper inside a terrain. Use go to ground for 2+ cover against only snap shots. Move him forward. Next turn Mawloc comes in where you want it.
> You can actually ignore the Instinctive behavior of outflanking hormagaunts be choosing to go to ground on the enemy's turn. IB states that you do not roll for it if you just entered reserves or went to ground last turn (or fleeing). Then move a flyrant in range (maybe with a +6" range boost???) and voila, your hormagaunts.
> Playing just one tervigon to babysit the biovores, sit on an objective and maybe spawn a couple of units or cast a buff might actually put the enemy in more trouble than anticipated.
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 10, 2014 3:17:15 GMT
I actually think hive guards are better now. Old hive guards was 6 shots, 4 hits, maybe no cover, str 8. Most often than not would just scratch the paint of a serious tank. New hive guards: 6 shots, 3 hits, str 8, 100% no cover save and after that resolves, an extra 3 dice for a hull point on a 2+. This is actually a guaranteed vehicle kill now. not sure what you're referring to here.
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Post by topaxygourouni on Jan 10, 2014 3:21:45 GMT
Yeah scratch that. I thought you did both str 8n hit and then haywire on the tank. But still, 6 shots, 3 hits for a hull point on a 2+ = one dead non LR tank. And with no cover saves, you also kill the stupid wave serpents (if you have enough time of course).
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Post by sunnyrobert on Jan 10, 2014 3:22:39 GMT
Was wondering the same thing... Is there a special rule to this?
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Post by revx on Jan 10, 2014 3:22:52 GMT
just to post it here to for the people not reading the 180+ page thread.
SITW is word as -3 LD for all enemy psykers in 12" range. not -3 LD for psyker test.
so the neg LD affects pinning, morale, and psyker test.
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Post by sunnyrobert on Jan 10, 2014 3:23:30 GMT
Ah haywire..... Ok
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 10, 2014 3:24:37 GMT
shock cannon is S5, AP5, 1 shot, small blast, haywire. it does not have ignores cover. we went over it last night pretty thoroughly. it's not bad for AV13-14, which HG struggled with before. it is kind of average when shooting transport class vehicles due to their footprint and an average scatter of 4ish inches. it can at least double up for infantry suppression?
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Post by revx on Jan 10, 2014 3:57:47 GMT
shock cannon is S5, AP5, 1 shot, small blast, haywire. it does not have ignores cover. we went over it last night pretty thoroughly. it's not bad for AV13-14, which HG struggled with before. it is kind of average when shooting transport class vehicles due to their footprint and an average scatter of 4ish inches. it can at least double up for infantry suppression? yea not sure what to think about that. losing 6" range and ignores cover hurts a lot. i think its still better to save the 5 points and roll with imp cannons still. they instagib =>T4, they are better against gunlines hiding in terrian, skimmers/jink, and flyers (althought not great without a skyfire nexus).
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Post by coredump on Jan 10, 2014 4:15:48 GMT
I actually think hive guards are better now. Old hive guards was 6 shots, 4 hits, maybe no cover, str 8. Most often than not would just scratch the paint of a serious tank. New hive guards: 6 shots, 3 hits, str 8, 100% no cover save and after that resolves, an extra 3 dice for a hull point on a 2+. This is actually a guaranteed vehicle kill now. Ignore cover, but BS3. So in some situations they are better, and some worse. IME, the new ones would have been an improvement overall. Not a big improvement, but better than a stick in the eye. Sure, but likely only good for turn 1. And then can only use snap shots... and then it shoots you again the next turn. Its a way to mitigate pain, but not a way to be successful. Sure, but warriors just aren't that good. Keeping a mediocre unit alive for a turn, isn't a great benefit. Hey more wounds is better than less. But I wasn't really having a problem keeping Biovores alive, they were usually tucked out of LoS. I mean its nice an all... but not really even noticable most of the time. I hear this all the time. But think it through. Deathleaper needs to be within 6" of your target location. So you are *well* within assault range, and Deathleaper just isn't all that resilient. But beyond that... all the bad guys have to do is move a couple of inches, and now the mawloc has no target. No one is going to ignore the Deathleaper *and* just stand there waiting to get boned by the Mawloc.
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Post by Squire on Jan 10, 2014 10:45:20 GMT
Whoever wrote this codex is probably reading this thread and crying with laughter. Not many people predicted we'd actually get worse than the Cruddex Pfff... I suppose competitive players may be able to take consolation from the fact the best mono builds don't appear overnight. Whatever lists are thrown together now will likely improve significantly when everyone has had the new Cruddex 2 for a little while and done a load of math hammer with it My old MC killer CC flyrant is dead (wings, quad talons, implant attack, TS). Scything talons were fine, I can't believe they felt they had to nerf those of all things. No implant attack apparently. I guess this is the push I need to make my HT a dakka flyrant, as much as I dislike the concept of it The mawloc becomes a hell of a tarpit now; 23.33 points per wound is awesome. A pair of them springing up in the enemy deployment zone then tying up shooty units for the rest of the game (if there aren't nearby vehicles to smash) could be a good backfield disruption strategy. The T-fex fielded as cheaply as possible and used as an objective denier could be worth a shot too. I think I saw 175 points mentioned, so 29 points per T6 2+ save wound. Even if it does nothing offensively it's (like the mawloc) a real nuisance to get rid of Biovores... I'm happy they've seemingly been improved, but of all of our units to give an extra wound to and make cheaper- why the biovores? They were already one of our best units. Absolutely baffling unless their shooting has taken a hit Disappointing overall but I can't wait to see how people start adapting to this new dex.
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