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Post by glassiya on Nov 21, 2013 8:49:21 GMT
Yes, tervigons could be considered op in the current game, but forcing people to take less is probably the wrong way to go. I'd suggest looking at the unit and working it "why" it's op and fixing that. Having t9 w6 monster scoring an objective and grabbing a relic - this is OP in the first place. And don't tell about "forcing to take less". They are HQ. There's SUPPOSED to be 1 or 2 of them in the first place. Not 5. |
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Post by jesses on Nov 21, 2013 9:14:56 GMT
Yes, tervigons could be considered op in the current game, but forcing people to take less is probably the wrong way to go. I'd suggest looking at the unit and working it "why" it's op and fixing that. Having t9 w6 monster scoring an objective and grabbing a relic - this is OP in the first place. And don't tell about "forcing to take less". They are HQ. There's SUPPOSED to be 1 or 2 of them in the first place. Not 5. I disagree, if anything I'd say take them out of HQ and solely in Troops, the hallmark of Nids is our ability to put MCs in every slot. With the increase in Sniper weapons in many Codexs they really aren't overly powerful, just useful, and they still aren't as spammable but people with 2 or 3 don't have wasted models, causing resentment. As for Lictors; - Become characters. - lose the current depolyment rules, gain Infiltrate. - Pheromone Trail changes to the same rules for Teleport Homers (no scatter within 6" on friendly deep strikers) + as long as the Lictor is alive all Outflanking units may re-roll the die to determine which side they come in on ala Acute Senses. - Swap Stealt for Shrouded (Deathleaper still gets both). - Bought as a Brood but deploy separately (like 3rd ed codex Necrom Tomb Spyders). - Move to Fast Attack. This changes them dramatically. They start the board as scout denial units (bugger you White Scars) and help us get our reserved forces down exactly where we need them. After that they become character assassins, charging in with other units and challenging the characters. It fits the fluff of what the Lictors are for and gives them several unique rolls on the battlefield. |
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Post by glassiya on Nov 21, 2013 9:24:23 GMT
well I don't remember ANY monster in troops in our 4th, 3rd or 2nd edition books.
Personally I don't mind about MC as Troops Selection. But it should be something different. Closer to these necron swarm-spawning thingies. Beast with 6 wounds under iron arm, equipped for CC and surrounded by cloud of buffed creeps - it's just plain wrong. So if we need to keep them in Troops, we need to redesign them completely. And this won't make arguments any less, people just get addicted to the cheese too fast.
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Post by jesses on Nov 21, 2013 9:34:40 GMT
Maybe not in those Codex's, but its the hallmark NOW, heh.
Also, those aren't hard fixes, its not even a complete redesign. Change them to Psyker lvl 1 so that they can't easily get Iron Arm, make Spawn Termies weaker but less random (say 1D6, re-roll results of 1 or 2, spawned as either a new unit or added to a unit within 6", players choice, but it never runs out) and that pretty much fixes them. They become expensive but fun Troops choices.
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Post by grarik on Nov 21, 2013 10:09:25 GMT
Personally I don't mind about MC as Troops Selection. But it should be something different. Closer to these necron swarm-spawning thingies. Beast with 6 wounds under iron arm, equipped for CC and surrounded by cloud of buffed creeps - it's just plain wrong. So if we need to keep them in Troops, we need to redesign them completely. And this won't make arguments any less, people just get addicted to the cheese too fast. So remove their ability to use biomancy, alter their spawning ability, and you've fixed the main issues that made them op. |
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Post by glassiya on Nov 21, 2013 11:02:16 GMT
Change them to Psyker lvl 1 so that they can't easily get Iron Arm, make Spawn Termies weaker but less random (say 1D6, re-roll results of 1 or 2, spawned as either a new unit or added to a unit within 6", players choice, but it never runs out) and that pretty much fixes them. They become expensive but fun Troops choices. They already ARE psykers of level 1. If we do that, we need to completely rewrite their options sheet, removing 2nd and 3rd psypowers, remove close-combat biomorphs that make them rival carnifexes, and reduce their wounds amount. Too much fixes. I'm not sure I want to do that, pretty because everyone got so used to them, EVERYTHING I would change is gonna be met with "wait, what?". So I didn't buried myself too deep in that. Increased price and only 1 tervi as Troops limit, this is not perfect, but I think more or less enough. I'm telling again - these are not rules for guys who bought 5 tervigons to play. This is an example of how our book should've been written in a first place. Back then we didn't even HOPED for monsters in Troops, now we think that this is how things are supposed be. No, they're not. Even now we have one of the best variability in Troops selection. We have cheap rangers, assaulters, infiltrating genestealers, customizable for any purpose warriors, and swarming rippers. What other codex can rival that much choice? But we forget all these options, because there are overpowered tervigons out there! Once again. Scoring Tervigon is like scoring LandRaider. It could happen sometimes, but what would you said, if, say, some GK could run 2 or 3 of these in every. single. game? |
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Post by gingerwerewolf on Nov 21, 2013 14:12:20 GMT
Personally I don't mind about MC as Troops Selection. But it should be something different. Closer to these necron swarm-spawning thingies. Beast with 6 wounds under iron arm, equipped for CC and surrounded by cloud of buffed creeps - it's just plain wrong. So if we need to keep them in Troops, we need to redesign them completely. And this won't make arguments any less, people just get addicted to the cheese too fast. So remove their ability to use biomancy, alter their spawning ability, and you've fixed the main issues that made them op. This is what to do - take away their access to Biomancy - thats what makes them overpowered - Feel no pain, Toughness 9, It will not die are all Psychic abilities. Also, have any of you played against Marines with Grav Guns? Even Biomancy Tervigons are trounced by them. I feel that Tervigons should be removed from the HQ spot completely. We need cheaper HQ options - EG Broodlord - not more MCs in that spot. You seem very anti-Tervigon but they were placed in the codex to represent the unending horde of the Tyranids - which is far more troop like than HQ like. I understand wanting to reduce their power a bit - but removing the amount you can field will only annoy gamers. Most Nid players have more than one, Ive got three in 4k and Id like more (not because they are overpowered but because they are iconic) Ive played against a list with 3 in 1.5k and 4 in 2k (Non double force Org) With Regards to your other points: hive Guard - I think I understand what you are trying to do, however where I think you have gone wrong is that none of the other Elites are good enough, and the Hive Guard are still amazing - meaning that they are still auto take. And due to the prevelance of Fliers and Tanks, we want more than one squad. Nothing else in Elites comes close because of the Meta - Shoot to pop tank, charge teh contents. We have nothing that can pop tanks at range reliably other than those HG So Yes I see why you have increased their price, but you have done nothing to solve the problem of them being autotake. Maybe I shouldnt have put this under Hive Guard's section but under Elites in general. The Survivability of Pyrovores is a problem, but feel no pain doesnt cut it. The fact that it explodes, and that its weapon makes it the equivilent of a Terminator with a Heavy Flamer, but without the Save nor the size of the squad its part of. Id say, make it an IC like a Sanguinary Priest, so that can join squads. That ups its survivability with the squad around it. If you want to mess around with its rules, keep it at the same price but make it give the squad SoulBlaze on its weapons or similar! With th Tyrannofex my reasoning is that with almost every army getting an MC of some sort, Poison, Grav and the predomiinance of Str 7 Weapons, a T6 6W monster is not the scary thing that it used to be. Compare that 170 points to an Eldar Wraithknight, or a Tau Riptide, and see the weapons and defences they have! The Lictor needs to be better defended. It needs to be able to drop in, Kill something and then dissappear - thats what all the stories tell us. Its the Predator from the film Predator. They need to shoot and shoot and hit nothing but air. Unfortunately the mechanics of 40k dont allow for that easily. I said drop the points as the Lictor doesnt work as is, or up its toughness. Maybe a better way would be to give it the Deathleapers shrouded and Stealth cover saves. But at T4, it still means that every time you charge a squad with a flamer in, you are likely to die on the charge. Your ideas are good, but I think they are too restricted by the 5th edition codex. All I see is that you have increased the points, or reduced the usefullness of our best units, while not doing enough to bring up the other choices, to rebalance what you have taken away. Im not saying these things to offend you I just disagree with your ideas on internal and external Codex Balance. I would also guess that you dont just play Nids, you play guard, and thats coming across in your design decisions. You dont seem to compare the nids to other Armies - Marine, Eldar, Tau etc... |
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Post by gingerwerewolf on Nov 21, 2013 14:19:24 GMT
Having t9 w6 monster scoring an objective and grabbing a relic - this is OP in the first place. And don't tell about "forcing to take less". They are HQ. There's SUPPOSED to be 1 or 2 of them in the first place. Not 5. I disagree, if anything I'd say take them out of HQ and solely in Troops, the hallmark of Nids is our ability to put MCs in every slot. With the increase in Sniper weapons in many Codexs they really aren't overly powerful, just useful, and they still aren't as spammable but people with 2 or 3 don't have wasted models, causing resentment. As for Lictors; - Become characters. - lose the current depolyment rules, gain Infiltrate. - Pheromone Trail changes to the same rules for Teleport Homers (no scatter within 6" on friendly deep strikers) + as long as the Lictor is alive all Outflanking units may re-roll the die to determine which side they come in on ala Acute Senses. - Swap Stealt for Shrouded (Deathleaper still gets both). - Bought as a Brood but deploy separately (like 3rd ed codex Necrom Tomb Spyders). - Move to Fast Attack. This changes them dramatically. They start the board as scout denial units (bugger you White Scars) and help us get our reserved forces down exactly where we need them. After that they become character assassins, charging in with other units and challenging the characters. It fits the fluff of what the Lictors are for and gives them several unique rolls on the battlefield. And I somehow missed this excellent post - All really good ideas, I couldnt agree more! |
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Post by glassiya on Nov 21, 2013 14:46:25 GMT
No.
Have none in my army.
Like, literally - NONE.
It's just that I wrote that list in a single evening, and didn't aimed for any major changes. Mostly prices. Rules were changed where they should've been changed. That's all.
Although, I take your point about HGs. However, I have a point of my own - they used to be our only AA. I added more. I made a Venom Cannon a suitable one. That means, that you could field Harpies, or even Flyrants with HVC, and solve the flier problem outright.
Of course, I wanted to give Genestealers an option to use Emplaced Weapons and Gun Emplacements, but that would be too much of a change, I aimed for something more subtle. I wasn't writing a codex of my own, I was trying to balance an existing one. Sorry to disappoint you, guys, but... that was the point.
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Post by gingerwerewolf on Nov 21, 2013 14:49:03 GMT
There are some good ideas, but I think that the 5th ed codex is dragging you back too much. With the way that 6th is written, there are loads of changes that have to be made.
Good work though!
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Post by glassiya on Nov 21, 2013 15:01:17 GMT
There are some good ideas, but I think that the 5th ed codex is dragging you back too much. With the way that 6th is written, there are loads of changes that have to be made. indeed. I was aiming at what our 5th edition book was supposed to be. Anti-air function was added as a necessary minimum in 6th. The fact that someone has an overpowered Riptide - should've make me to write an OP of my own. This means, that a Riptide itsef should be nerfed/raised in price, and that is just not my quest right now. |
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Post by jesses on Nov 21, 2013 20:30:46 GMT
I disagree, if anything I'd say take them out of HQ and solely in Troops, the hallmark of Nids is our ability to put MCs in every slot. With the increase in Sniper weapons in many Codexs they really aren't overly powerful, just useful, and they still aren't as spammable but people with 2 or 3 don't have wasted models, causing resentment. As for Lictors; - Become characters. - lose the current depolyment rules, gain Infiltrate. - Pheromone Trail changes to the same rules for Teleport Homers (no scatter within 6" on friendly deep strikers) + as long as the Lictor is alive all Outflanking units may re-roll the die to determine which side they come in on ala Acute Senses. - Swap Stealt for Shrouded (Deathleaper still gets both). - Bought as a Brood but deploy separately (like 3rd ed codex Necrom Tomb Spyders). - Move to Fast Attack. This changes them dramatically. They start the board as scout denial units (bugger you White Scars) and help us get our reserved forces down exactly where we need them. After that they become character assassins, charging in with other units and challenging the characters. It fits the fluff of what the Lictors are for and gives them several unique rolls on the battlefield. And I somehow missed this excellent post - All really good ideas, I couldnt agree more! Thanks! I actually did what Glassiya is trying to do back when sixth hit and completely rewrote the Tyranid Codex. My gaming group loves my version of it. I didn't change a lot of points values, but I made subtle tweaks and did a lot of re-organizing. Pyrovores become Beasts, gain S5 and T5 A3 and Torrent, are moved to Fast Attack but go up to 50pts each, changing their focus from being gun beasts to being a hefty anti-2+ armour CC machine with a decent gun, they support Ravenors really well that way. If you want I can e-mail you my 5.5 Codex and you can critique it. |
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Post by coredump on Nov 22, 2013 7:16:44 GMT
The Terv is not overpowered. It is a good unit, but has plenty of drawbacks.
Yes, If you play relic, and If you roll IA, and IF you get T9 every turn, and if you get to the relic first, and if they don't kill you with the plethora of AP3/2/1 weapons, and IF they don't use poison weapons on you, and If they don't have any force weapons, and if they have very few powerfists..... then it is OP.
Otherwise... it is a good solid unit. Others think it is OP because it is fairly unique and thus they get confused by it. We think it is OP because there isn't anything else in the dex that is a good solid unit.
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Post by malebranche on Nov 22, 2013 7:41:32 GMT
Tervigons do need a nerf, but I think they should still be able to be troops - drop them to s4, make them spawn less termagants (but more reliably), change the cost. There are ways to nerf them while minimizing the amount of rage it causes. I dont even like them myself, and I don't have any, but some people are crazy about them.
Other than that, my only criticism is the Mawloc. Being swallowed whole should permanently kill the target. Maybe they can come back if the Mawloc is killed within one turn or something, but spending four turns in its gut should be enough to kill anyone. If the stomach was a remotely survivable place to be the guy inside would just use his powerfist/chainsword/whatever he has to tear his way out.
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