Mixing Chapter Tactics

[WestRider]

RAVEN GUARD
Chaplain, Jump Pack, Meltabombs

10 Vanguard Veterans, Jump Packs, 3 Storm Shields, 2 Power Axes, Relic Blade, 4 Meltabombs

2x10 Tactical Marines, Plasmagun, Combi-Plasma, Multi-Melta

2xLand Speeder Typhoon

2xWhirlwind

Aegis Line, Quad Gun

IMPERIAL FISTS ALLIES
Librarian

10 Tactical Marines, Plasmagun, Combi-Plasma, Missile Launcher

10 Devastators, 4 Missile Launchers with Flakk

1650 Points, odd level because of a Campaign thing. I just built some Vanguard Vets, and Raven Guard get the most out of them, but I also wanted to see just how viable Imperial Fists can make Flakk Missiles. I figure I'll have the Dev Sergeant use his Signum on the dude manning the Quad Gun for 4 BS5 shots with Tank Hunter

Not entirely sure what I'm going to do with the Librarian. It's been a while since I used a Psyker without Divination. Probably going to roll Biomancy if I'm up against MEq, Telepathy if it's Xenos (other than 'Crons), then he'll either hang with the Devs or Scout up with one of the Raven Guard Tac Squads, depending on what he gets.

The Typhoons are new too. Just got a couple in a trade. Been wanting to try them out for a while, they seem like one of the best uses of the fragile Land Speeder platform, with the Range and Mobility to hang back a bit and avoid some of the threats.

[infornography]

Tank hunters would make flakk more attractive, but I'm not sure even then it is worth the exorbitant cost. Considering that lascannon devs are cheaper than flakk missile devs. different role of course, but SO MUCH better at that role. Let us know how that works out. I am curious.

As for the librarian, if you don't have a veteran sergeant with the devs, that might be a good place to stick him. Just have him hang out with the dev squad loaded with telepathy. Most telepathy powers have 24" range and are good for a backline support psyker to have. Maybe set it up so he can hang out with either the tac squad or the dev squad depending on what he wants to target with witchfire that round.

Raven Guard are widely considered the weakest chapter tactics by a wide margin, it will be interesting to hear how their tactics work out in practice.

[WestRider]

Interesting to hear that. I've mostly seen Iron Hands talked down the most on pure power levels, while the Raven Guard get denigrated for not matching people's ideas of their fluff (i.e. not letting Jump Infantry get Scout and Stealth).

[infornography]

I think most of the criticism comes from the fact that assault marines and vanguard vets are not very good for their cost. They are expensive and don't put out very many attacks. Yeah getting the guaranteed hammer of wrath attacks helps mitigate that some, but what they really needed was some special rule that would help them in melee. Like rend or shred. Something that increases their effectiveness without having to be something as expensive as a power weapon. As they are they can ambush units that are really weak in melee, but if faced with something even moderately competent in melee they tend to fold like a deck of cards due to the small numbers they come in and lack of ability to penetrate armor or wound on better than a 4+ against most things. Their special rules would be quite nice if the key units involved were actually significantly effective.

At least that is the common thoughts on the matter that I have seen. Part of why I am curious as to how well it works in practice. I can see the hammer of wrath hits and wound rerolls being quite nice and the scout moves and outflanking could make for some interesting deployment options on everything that isn't jetpacks, bikes, terminators, centurions, or vehicles. It is quite stupid that jetpacks are being excepted from those rules, but since they get to use their jetpacks for movement AND assault, they are already quite mobile. The ability to outflank some devastators could make multimeltas more attractive to them than salamanders amusingly enough.

In fact, scout moves plus devastators with multimeltas sounds like a powerful tactic now that I think about it.

[WestRider]

At the end there, you're getting to it. Like I said, it's the fact that their Chapter Tactics, combined with the mediocre nature of SM Jump Infantry, lead to their fluffy build being not very good. I think there are some significant possibilities, tho, in Scouting forward a large mass of Tacs, SternGuard, and Devs, as well as Outflanking things like Assault Marines without Jump Packs (think something like 5 with 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer in a Razorback), SternGuard, or even just Tacs. I think I'd rather Outflank Devs with something longer-ranged, and try to bring them in on the weak side to open a second front in combination with a strong firebase in my Deployment Zone to get Side Armour shots and such.

I have no illusions that the Vanguard Vets are going to be great here. I'm just happy with the Models I made for them, and figured Raven Guard would be the best way to actually get some use out of them. My ideal is that I'm going to, at some point, get to pull off a triple Charge with them somehow. We'll see if it actually happens.

[WestRider]

List did pretty well, won The Scouring 12-6 against Chaos Marines. Few of the individual pieces I wanted to test worked out like I'd planned, tho.

Tank Hunter on the Devs got me First Blood on a Forge Fiend, but there were enough tall Ruins around that my Opponent was able to keep his Heldrake hidden from them, so I didn't really get a test of what that's worth.

Scouting the Tacs forward was handy. We place Terrain before determining Deployment Type, and I would have been pretty badly blocked up if I hadn't been able to Scout into a couple of Ruins just outside my Deployment Zone. Stealth did nothing, because it was Night Fight, and the only Raven Guard Units that got shot on Turn 1 were in the 12-24" zone where they would have had Stealth anyhow.

Vanguard Vets suffered from New Model Syndrome, failing 6 of their first 8 Armour Saves. Their presence kept Typhus from getting quite so aggressive right off the bat, tho, and then they managed to hold up him, 9 Plague Marines, and 20 Zombies for a couple of Turns. They did some damage in the fight, too, but keeping it so Typhus never managed to make it into my Deployment Zone and clear the 4 Point Objective was their real value.

The Typhoons and the Whirlwinds were the real winners. Whirlwinds just pulled Zombies off the board by the handful, and the Typhoons both wrecked face on the ground and dropped the Heldrake when they found a Skyfire Nexus (They were Scoring because of The Scouring, so they could use it), which was pretty awesome. Definitely a big fan of the Typhoons, they didn't even get shot at all Game, because they were able to hang back behind Ruins and blast away at Units on the edges all Game.

[infornography]

Yeah, Typhoons got a HELL of a lot more attractive in this codex. 6th ed gave them some buffs for being fast skimmers, the new codex made the typhoon missile upgrade cheap enough to actually want to pay for. Possibly too cheap relative to the other options, but time will tell.

Scouting infantry really sounds like the kind of hidden strength of that chapter tactics.

[gigasnail]

i don't even know what purpose the van vet squads are supposed to have now, except for to maybe just be a counter-punch/troubleshooter unit with power weapons/grav pistols. expensive for a non-scoring unit and as noted not a lot of attacks for what you get. i guess you can get a couple of non-character/unchallengeable power fist/power axes?

[infornography]

Honor guard are far better for the cost. You have to take a chapter master to get them and they have almost no customizability, but they are powerful and cheap (relatively). They are a LOT more heldrake resistant and their armor is good enough that all power weapons except axes, fists, and hammers bounce off of them.

If I wanted a powerful melee force to deal with things, I'd take either them or hammernators depending on if I had or was willing to buy a chapter master in the list.

If running a raven guard army with an eye toward fluff though, Vanguard vets are pretty much your choice for shock troopers. They do a LOT of damage if you give them power weapons. they are just significantly overcosted.

[WestRider]

Like I said, I was mostly using the Vanguard Vets because I liked the Models I made for them. I don't think there is a real role that Honour Guard or Hammernators in a Land Raider can't do better. But I've always like the idea of Assault Marines, and they can get closer to what I feel like a regular Assault Squad should be than an actual Assault Squad does, even if they end up costing about 50% more than they really should for what they bring.

I also rolled absolutely horribly with them. In addition to the poor Saves that I mentioned, I ended up with 1 Hit out of 6 Power Axe Attacks with Re-Rolls when they did make it into Combat. I'll probably keep pulling them out for lower-key games, but they're never coming to a Tournament or anything.