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Post by commandersasha on Jun 5, 2013 12:09:43 GMT
The Riptide. The Heldrake. The Dreadknight. The Wraithknight. The Doomscythe.
I don't like Flyers. They are out of scale with a 4'x6' 28mm game, they can fly really fast then turn right angles. They can kill my infantry, and there's nothing I can do back.
I don't like Walkers. As a teenager I attempted a Lego walker, and as a university robotic student a computer-controlled 2 legged walker with servos and full feedback. Walking on 2 legs is inherently unstable, requires massive processing power, and huge amounts of torque to maintain balance. Even allowing for futuristic power sources and materials, a Dreadnaught could never work, let alone something on the robotic MC scale. Stupid.
When I got into 40K, end of 4th edition, I was immediately attracted to a game that whilst having a science fiction theme, was also a tactical game where stupid mistakes were punished, careful play was reliable (though might not win), and good tactical decisions were rewarded, unless the other guy was better. It's not as pure as chess, but it also isn't as random as Snakes And Ladders.
The huge leap in power of this edition has left me feeling like the game is now much more for little boys zooming space planes over the sandpit shouting "pew-pew", and Action Man stomping on Lego men.
Yesterday, my work-in-progress Dark Eldar army played a Tau/Ork list, 1,500. (oh, and I hate Allies. Cheating.) The first half of the game was depressing and boring, as the tooled-up Riptide hid in cover, splatting my army whilst I threw everything at it. This is what happens when Heldrakes appear, or Dreadknights, and the forthcoming Eldar monstrosity will be worse. Then my buddy moved out so I could see it better, and eventually my tooled-up Archon finished it. The second half was a tense tactical battle, losses on both sides, fighting for an eventual draw, with him holding an objective, and me having all 3 secondary points. THAT felt like Warhammer.
I'm not looking for tactical advice. I've done that, on both TheDarkCity and on TheTyranidHive, for my Skaven-Counts-As.
What I want is to not have to face these units that I feel should have stayed on the Apocalypse table, or at best a separate expansion system that I could tell my friends that I don't want to play.
But I don't want to be THAT guy. How do I say to my friends that the models that they like, and have paid £££s for (or, in the case of the Wraithknight, £££££££££££s), are having a very detrimental effect on MY enjoyment of the game, to the extent that I often feel like shelving the whole game?
The recent slew of new codecii mean that our gaming group is LOVING 40K, and has dropped all other games. I am the only one who doesn't like these new unit types (and coincidentally the only one who doesn't like Anime/transformer films and games).
I feel like I'm in a cycling club, and half the new members are bringing motorbikes, because they are faster, easier and noisier. I just like pedalling!
Am I being a grouch? Should I just grow a pair, buy a Voidraven, take some Eldar allies and a BarbieKnight?
(To be fair, a couple of my friends turn up "trying out a list without flyers", as they know my feelings, especially as most of our games are at my house, but then I just feel like a heel!)
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Post by infornography on Jun 5, 2013 12:28:34 GMT
Flyers are out of scale, but so are tanks frankly. The M1A1 Abrams tank is roughly as big as a baneblade at the 28mm scale. The Baneblade is supposed to be this huge super sci fi enormotank, but it is no bigger than a 21st century main battle tank? And is utterly dwarfed by some German monstrosities from WW2?
I have just come to accept that vehicles are out of scale for the same reason limbs are out of scale and guns are out of scale. It is a heroic scale game where the stars of the show are supposed to be the infantry and as such they are of a larger scale than they should be relative to everything else in part to make them seem bigger and more important.
The movement of flyers I just take as an abstraction. They are actually zooming all over the place, but it is abstracted down to the moves you are allowed to make in order to balance them somewhat and make it manageable at this scale.
Same with the giant mechs, robots, biomostrosities, and battlesuits. Sure the laws of physics would say these things are not only infeasible but impractical due to the fact that they have more weak points than a brick on treads with angled plating and a big gun. But physics and reality aren't what the game is about. Unfortunately what the game seems to be about this edition is going pew pew with your action figures. I don't like the amount of randomness that the game has in it currently as it often leads to tactical decisions going seriously wonky. But working past that, there is still a lot of room for advanced strategy and list building to play a key role. Don't get too disheartened.
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Post by Hellbreaker on Jun 5, 2013 12:59:15 GMT
To be fair I've avoided the Allies rules, as has everyone I know. They feel weird, they play weird and unless I'm playing an Imperial Guard army with Space Marine allies (alternatively inquisition forces with Imperial Guard meatshields) they are weird. Pretty much only Imperial Guard work with them from a "this isn't so weird" stand-point. Besides when I load up my Eldar I want to play pretty space elves, not pretty Space elves and happy tea party friends.
As for flyers and big walkers, only the former bothers me. Lacking options with Skyfire and hoping the other player is silly enough to put the squishy flyer close enough to my rapid-fire weapons in hover mode is silly. The walkers are mostly Monstrous Creatures, or well walkers. They're all huge to boot. Easy enough to just snipe down with either Snipers or some big guns.
I'll admit I'm stoked about being able to use a Nightwing, but the flyer rules irritate me still.
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Post by killercroc on Jun 6, 2013 1:40:56 GMT
I do agree with you on some points here, some models just seem TOO powerful for a 'normal' game of warhammer. Sure these big monsters are really nice but they seem out of place. Warhammer 40k should be mostly infantry and tanks, not starfighters and 2 story tall robots, those just get to out of place IMO.
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Post by gigasnail on Jun 6, 2013 5:46:36 GMT
look at it from your opponent's perspective. they bought these expensive hunks of plastic, and you can be sure they want to see them on the table. if they're friends i doubt they'd have a problem throwing you the occasional 'no flyers/no allies' list if you asked them.
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Post by maista on Jun 6, 2013 8:13:10 GMT
I can only agree to most aspects brought up here. Fliers are seriously out of scale in 40k. Some of em, like Thunderhawks or Valkyrie-Type Troop carriers may serve in a niche role on a 40k battlefield in the context of narrative scenarios. Fighter-bomber attacks and dogfighting on the other hand are best left to other games. Thats the appeal of the sadly now-defunct specialist games. Likewise, while Walkers in the sense of Dreadnoughts, Sentinels and War-Walkers have always been a staple of 40k, and core part of its SciFi-aesthetic, the recent one-upmanship in terms of "who has the biggest toys?" has left me quite frustrated and worried.
I have no interest in Apocalypse whatsoever and I can't see the appeal at all. Therefore I don't welcome the intrusion of Apocalypse-Elements in the future. Besides that, there is the financial aspect of it all, both in terms of money spent and time required to assemble and paint. Its getting out of hand. I'm already choosing my miniatures for their simplicity rather than their elaborate detail and extravagant pose. And lastly... my terrain is suited for 40k-size models. It can incorporate a Tervigon and a Riptide at a pinch but that's about it. I don't have cover, Wraithknight, Stompa or Baneblade-Size. And I'm not going to build a Downtown-Tokyo Table for that!
Cheers
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Post by infornography on Jun 6, 2013 9:49:12 GMT
I suddenly have the desire to have a downtown Tokyo scenario with a Wraithknight, Riptide, Trygon, and Bloodthirster.
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Post by t⊗theark on Jun 6, 2013 10:14:53 GMT
You know, old editions are still playable. A lot of people I know like to play smaller games in 4th and 3rd edition all the time because it's quicker and simpler/ It's like playing Mercs instead of Infinity or Hordes instead of Warmachine The games that you love still exist if you have the right books.
"Wanna waste some time while we wait for the bulk of people to get here? Slap together a 1,500 point list from the 4th edition codecies and we'll do something while eating these chips."
It's sorta like people complaining about modern games being tasteless, brown FPSs made just to show off what the engine can do. Older games still exist sir.
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Post by commandersasha on Jun 6, 2013 10:56:15 GMT
I think I'm going to have to do a combination: Play their game when necessary (ie include anti flier in my away-game list, maybe even get some models I don't like, but then other times ask for scenario-based games that are basically "6th without Flyers & Big Mechs".
I generally think 6th is the most enjoyable, exciting and cinematic edition I've played, it's only really these new apoc-style units I have a problem with; challenges and random charge took me a while to come round to, but now I have adapted, and am fine with them.
I DO enjoy Apocalypse: 4-6 of us do it every few months, we start with the Jaegerbombs at 10AM, the barbecue is going, we can muster at least 6 Super-heavies between us, nobody bothers with Troops, and we have a ball. It's a 40K-themed party, not a game of 40K, and it's a great laugh. Just don't hope to win, it's preposterous, random and grossly unfair, although often unfair in your favour!
I'm glad I'm not the only one who is not hugely enthusiastic about some of the "Michael Bay" changes to 40K; in my group, I seem to be the only one, and as I have less disposable income than most of my group, I am facing multiple Heldrakes, Riptides etc.
Oh well, adapt and survive!
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Post by yoritomo on Jun 7, 2013 3:10:44 GMT
Flyers are out of scale, but so are tanks frankly. The M1A1 Abrams tank is roughly as big as a baneblade at the 28mm scale. The Baneblade is supposed to be this huge super sci fi enormotank, but it is no bigger than a 21st century main battle tank? And is utterly dwarfed by some German monstrosities from WW2? Really? I never thought they were that big. But what do I know, I only saw them when they escorted us in the middle of Iraq. Anyway, you are not the only one to notice these things. I remember 4th edition being a very tactical game where terrain mattered. Now terrain is irreverent as everything gives you a 5+ cover save and nothing truly blocks line of sight. Every game I've played in 6th edition might as well been played in planet bowling ball. And while I'm sure flyers will be brought into balance as more codices are released, right now they are just broken. If you don't have some kind of AA or a flyer to intercept you are facing an uphill battle. The worst part about it is that GW can't roll back units they've released. This means that flyers will always be a part of 40K from now on.
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Post by infornography on Jun 7, 2013 4:12:11 GMT
The hull of the M1A1 is 26 feet long. That is roughly 4 and a third tall humans laying foot to head.
Take a baneblade and start laying guardsmen down next to it. I think it is roughly the same. I don't have a baneblade model but I've seen several and looked up images on the internet. Estimating a guardsman model is around 1.5 inches tall if they are standing upright, maybe with counting the hats and such, and a baneblade is 20 cm long according to an internet post I dug up. that is about 5 and a quarter guardsmen for a baneblade.
So the baneblade is slightly bigger, but should be MUCH bigger.
The baneblade is a good bit wider than an Abrams though.
Point still stands that vehicles are not represented on the same scale as infantry. Ever try to fit 10 space marines in a rhino?
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Post by Squire on Jun 7, 2013 9:50:29 GMT
I agree with the OP's sentiments. It seems so unimaginative of GW releasing these huge models with every new codex. That riptide is one thing, but from what I've read the wraithknight's offensive and defensive capabilities seems way out of proportion to its points cost. If that thing puts a toenail into area terrain or plants itself on a skyshield it'll require an enormous amount of shooting to deal with, leaving the rest of the Eldar army free to do as it pleases.
I haven't quite come to terms with flyers yet either, but I think a major part of that is because our codex only has one good option to deal with them. I wrote a 1500 point CSM list last night which was heavy on anti flyer shooting, and I think if I ever put that list together I'd have my fingers crossed the opponent would turn up with a flyer or two. The problem is, although that list has some significant shooting I'm not sure what it would do about a wraithknight (or two)
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Post by guidebot on Jun 7, 2013 11:14:36 GMT
I don't have a problem with the new big models mentioned in the OP, except possibly the dreadknight which I feel is a bit undercosted. The riptide is a very tactical model; it's not a firepower beast, the tau can get a lot more boom for their buck elsewhere in their codex - the riptide's strength is flexibility, and that's why it's in elites and not heavy support. It's also not cheap, starting at a little under 200pts and going way up to just under 300 if you take a lot of gubbins with it. This seems perfectly balanced to me, and each time I've watched a game with one in, it's never seemed too powerful or too weak. Sometimes one does really well and destroys a lot, sometimes it gets caught out by a bad jet-pack roll or cunning maneuver and assaulted (pretty much taking it out of the game).
The wraithknight, for those who've read the codex entry, is really quite underwhelming. It's default armament is just two wraithguns with triple range; quite expensive for around 50 termagants worth of points. You can pay another eight termagants worth or so to give it three S6 AP2 blasts, but you know who gets more for a lot less? Leman Russ executioners. No, it's not a fair comparison since they're not a jump MC, but I really don't think that that's overwhelming firepower. Also, as an MC, they can only fire two weapons a turn. So they can't fire their shoulder weapons and their main weapons; they have to chose. This honestly seems like quite an oversight, given how the scatter lasers are meant to give twin-linked to their main guns. Finally, the ghostglaive is utterly wasted on the wraithknight, which is already S10. Yes, it's jump-MC, but it's only got 4 attacks, so it can't just melee it's way around the board. And I don't think it's the hardest to kill; krak spam, poison gaunts, splinter weapons, kroot snipers... there are so many things that make it look like a liability for it's cost.
As for flyers? Well, those I can't comment on very much, since I've not seen enough of them to make a decision. I don't have a problem with the scale, since this game has been out of scale very badly since it's inception and I'm fine with that (seriously, try imagining ten space marine models inside a rhino, for starters).
If I may be so bold, I'd say it sounds like you're just a bit tired of the game. Maybe it's time to take a break and come back with a fresh mind. Failing that, you could try to find some people who share your thoughts and just play with no big models? There's always a way to play fun games, you just have to know what you want out of a game and make sure you play people who are likeminded (pretty much my first rule of 40k).
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Post by lordofthebrood on Jun 7, 2013 11:41:22 GMT
It's default armament is just two wraithguns with triple range; quite expensive for around 50 termagants worth of points. 36" Range, wounding on 2+, ID on 6+... What's the AP? Sounds like a must take against any 'Nid list...
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Post by guidebot on Jun 7, 2013 11:55:59 GMT
It's default armament is just two wraithguns with triple range; quite expensive for around 50 termagants worth of points. 36" Range, wounding on 2+, ID on 6+... What's the AP? Sounds like a must take against any 'Nid list... Wraithguns have always been really, really nasty against anything with multiple wounds (and, indeed, anything in general!). Wraithguard get five in a squad for half the price of a wraithknight. Yes, they've got less range and maneuverability, but it just seems really underwhelming to me that a wraithknight has a paltry two shots for it's price. That's two dice it rolls. They can miss. They can fail to wound. They can be saved by cover. Even though eldar can get around these limitations (psychic powers and wraith marking) it's no more potent a tactic than many, many others in the game. They have only a 1/6 chance of the instant death per hit. I just don't see it being that great. Big models die in one hit all the time, and this seems like a fairly unreliable way of doing it. I find a unit of long fangs far more scary for my MCs. And they can afford two units of long fangs for the cost of the wraithknight.
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