GW too expensive... can we fix it?

[Space is pretty big]

So, GW is doing a classic bubble and bust.

GW is incrementally raising prices, something it's been doing for a while now, and there are a few common situations where price raising happens:

-When a company isn't selling well.

-When a company is acquiring capita for an expansion.

Now the expansion would of happened by now if they were looking to do so, but so far I've just seen GW close stores, not open them... and that leaves just the first option.

The first option, poor sales, can actually sometimes be rectified with a price hike... Only, this usually happens with luxury items, such as wine, fancy cheeses, limited edition cars, and so on.

40k isn't really in that same category as food or collectables, even though it ironically shares aspects of both. Unlike a collectable, where the worth is based off of how close the item remains to its out of the box condition, you're suppose to destroy 40k, literally chopping it into bits.
That would then seem to more resemble food, but the inherent quality of food is dependent on the manufacturer, where as in 40k, the buyer is responsible for making the models look good, thus making it hard for the manufacturers to charge for a quality that is out fo their control.

So, as GW raises its prices, in the short term it will gain them money, and on paper will show improvement. This is what's happening right now with GW. Their income is increasing, and it makes their company look stronger... but their customer base has shrunk, not expanded.

Thus the death spiral begins. With fans finding ways of cutting costs on playing the game, or never even playing the game to begin with, GW will raise prices. This leads less buyers, leading to higher prices, and so on... Eventually this spiral reaches a head, and there just aren't enough buyers, regardless of how devoted they are, to support an international company.

Now, we've all complained about all this plenty of times, myself included... but I guess what I'm looking for now is something to do about it, if there even is something to do about it.

GW is a business, and you can't really vote to improve a business like you can on a law or a politician. The only real input you can give is not to but their product... but that only really just leads to the death of the business, something we'd want to prevent. On the other hand, buying in-mass a flawed product won't fix the product either, just preserve or encourage the flaws.

Still, I can't help but wonder, other than to create a new company, a corrected version if you will, I'm kinda out of options...

So, any thoughts? Idea for us, the consumer to bring improvement to GW, or is this just out of our hands?

[Deleted]

Vote with your money. The vast majority of my army is second-hand, I do not buy Failcastm and what little I have bought new was not from GW themselves.

[Space is pretty big]

Oct 16, 2012 0:00:40 GMT @60mm said:

Vote with your money. The vast majority of my army is second-hand, I do not buy Failcastm and what little I have bought new was not from GW themselves.

Which leads to the down fall of the company... but maybe thats for the best, giving them a good financial poke in the tush to change their ways?

[Deleted]

It's not up to us to speculate the future of the company, all we can do is vote with our wallets. That is the only power consumers have. Use it!

If GW's direct sales (website/GW stores) plumetted while discount site/2nd hand sales soared, they would be forced to drop prices to regain profit on their own product. If they reacted by restricting their product to their direct outlets, they would lose more as most places don't have a GW store nearby and many purchases are because you can have it immediately. Voting with wallets does work. After all, GW only wants your money. Value your money and vote with it, companies will compete for it. That's what they do. It's only when consumers allow companies to value their wallets that they get abused.

[robomummy]

yes its a terrible buisness practice, yes its and expensive hobby. is that going to stop me buying from them? No. I buy less from GW because I love their games. so what if it is a little more expensive that other companies? Its why I buy from my LGS rather than those websites that give you discounts.

If I need to pay a little more to keep the place where I have hours of fun every weekend then Im fine with that.

I still use models I bought 5 years ago when I started, yeah its $40 for 10 figures plus paints but its $40 that will give me hours of entertainment and fun with likeminded people who share a similer love of getting together with some beers and playing some games. If I have to pay a little more so be it.

[Overread]

Go out and buy yourself a decent DSLR camera to start photography
or a decent set of rods for fishing
or a set of golf clubs
or a musical instrument

Because chances are you could have bought several 1000 points worth of GW models - paints - assembly gear etc... for the same cost as just starting up in one of those other hobbies.


As for prices remember GW has been out for 25 years - most game companies in this market are lucky if they can make it to the end of the year maybe two or three years and still be around. As a result many other companies don't have price rises because they never actually last long enough mainstream to really go through the process. Most of GW prices are still very much in line with modern competing companies (heck go look at the prices on Privateer Press stuff - £60 or there abouts for 5 metal riders! 5!).

Yes there are cheaper start up games, yes if you're under 18 years old its a very expensive hobby compared to say magic or yugio cards - these have been true facts ever since the game started years and years ago and they've not changed because whilst GW likes those markets, they are confident in their market position as a larger scale wargame in the market. Infinity, Malifluax and many of the others are taking a slice of the entry level because they are much smaller, very different styles of games. PP with Hordes and Warmachine also used to fit this market and sort of still does; despite the fact that they are now branching out into supporting larger scale battles and higher priced miniatures (take a look at their new gargantuans/collosals - at £87 per model).

The price of metals has risen as has transport and many other factors - for a large company like GW they simply can't soak that with the margins they have without hitting the fans for higher prices. Also remember that most of their prices rises match with inflation - every company has to do that every so often, GW just does it annually whilst many others might use other methods (eg slower price rises in small stages over select minis through the year or larger jumps every few years).

Also lets not forget that GW doesn't just supply miniatures, they also supply you with a place to play with those miniatures. If you're UK based you can likely find a GW store in the nearest big town/city without much trouble (indeed in many towns its the only miniatures shop barring a few toyshops who sell a very tiny range - and normally its either GW or PP). Yes that means they have even more additional costs over a regular miniature games producer, but it also means that they can provide a place well stocked for you to buy from and to play the game (and seriously once you leave school/uni finding gaming clubs to play can be a nightmare if you're after independents).



In the end I've love for them to have lower prices I really really would. But I must say that we have to trust that they've shaved their prices down low enough to support the hobby without crippling themselves long term.



PS if you want a shocking price rise compared to 5 years ago the price on nearly every DSLR lens that isn't mass market bottom of the line in production basically rose by 40% and new lens releases replacing existing ones are now often hitting and settling in the market at near to double the price that the originals were 5 years ago.
Those are big increases when these lenses cost from £100s to £1000s. Next to them the price rises of GW stuff (even % wise) quite small.

[Deleted]

You can buy a brand new, nice Canon lens with a micro motor for autofocus for near the same price you get an ounce of plastic from GW. See Canon 50mm 1.8

A set of golf clubs will contain more metal than several armies, which cost far more, have combined.

Musical instruments, for the time and materials, are cheaper. I've made guitars, I know that one.

And if metal minis have gotten so expensive, what's up with all the quality Reaper metal minis I can buy for $6 or $7? Do they mine their metal in a secret place where prices are different? What's up with Trollforged and all these Kickstarter mini companies doing it for far less with equal quality? If plastic models are expensive to make, why do hobby stores have thousands of different scale models for so much lower than GW models?

As far as the GW stores giving you a place to play, those are profit increasers as they get 100% profit since none goes to a 3rd party. That's like saying Apple has Apple stores out of the kindness of wanting you to be in an Apple store.

It's one thing to accept their prices, more power to you. But thinking that GW is scraping by with their prices or that they've been forced to by the price of materials is very off and unrealistic. Their model is simple. Up the price and see if profit stays the same or rises. If it does, try again. If it does, try again.

[Space is pretty big]

"If GW's direct sales (website/GW stores) plumetted while discount site/2nd hand sales soared, they would be forced to drop prices to regain profit on their own product."

True, but those price hikes are the results of other issues, such as sloppy business practices that need to be changed. They need to stop making the mistakes that lead them to needing to raise prices to begin with. Only they haven't yet, and I was pondering if there was a way that we the consumer could correct that... I doubt it though.

"No. I buy less from GW because I love their games. so what if it is a little more expensive that other companies? Its why I buy from my LGS rather than those websites that give you discounts."

Thats not a universal mentality though... and GW can't depend on a few like yourself to fund their company.

"Go out and buy yourself a decent DSLR camera to start photography
or a decent set of rods for fishing
or a set of golf clubs
or a musical instrument."


So long as the camera doesn't break, it'll still take good photos.
So long as the rod doesn't split, you can keep fishing
So long as there's a field near by, you can keep golfing
So long as the strings don't snap, you can keep playing

These analogies aren't comparable, as they don't take into account the degree to which 40k makes your prior purchases obsolete... a better analogy would be Apple, which builds obsolescence into it's marketing strategy. Only, even technology will still function if it's out of date, see the PS2. Meanwhile 40k can no longer be played casually, once the new versions come out, as the general player base will no longer accept the old game. Unless you have a few hard core buddies to play the older versions with, you've just had your art works, designed with a purpose, turned nearly useless.

And that's the major difference there, the artistic devotion. Unlike with a computer where the parts are just interchangeable jigsaw puzzle pieces, the only way to alter your existing models, and bring them up to date, is to destroy your own artwork, which is a much more vulgar thing to ask than simply switching out a graphics card.

"The price of metals has risen as has transport and many other factors"
-Citation Needed

"Also remember that most of their prices rises match with inflation"
-Citation Needed ;p

"Also lets not forget that GW doesn't just supply miniatures, they also supply you with a place to play with those miniatures. If you're UK based you can likely find a GW store in the nearest big town/city without much trouble."

I'm not in the UK, I'm in the US, and over here their practices aren't quite all that smart... Which maybe the issue? They may simply not be able to handle the america market, which brings me back to start, how do (if we even can,) fix those issues?

"In the end I've love for them to have lower prices I really really would. But I must say that we have to trust that they've shaved their prices down low enough to support the hobby without crippling themselves long term. "

...Why? Companies blow themselves up all the time, (Enron, PanAm, Borders.) They're all run by humans after all, and I've been part of major organizations that were brought down by a few people at the top... more than once.

"PS if you want a shocking price rise compared to 5 years ago the price on nearly every DSLR lens that isn't mass market bottom of the line in production basically rose by 40% and new lens releases replacing existing ones are now often hitting and settling in the market at near to double the price that the originals were 5 years ago."

But one dumb act doesn't mitigate another. >.> Still, sucks to be a DSLR collector ;9

[robomummy]

Just to be clear before I say this Space but I agree with you.

People need to think past the short term expense of buying an army and start looking at the long term value the army will give you. GW may raise prices constantly but I doubt this is an arbitrary decision. Whatever reasons they have for doing this there are reasons.

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2012 2:29:18 GMT robomummy said:

Whatever reasons they have for doing this there are reasons.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Jabberwocky]

I laugh when people say their models are obsolete.

You don't have to play with current rules. Heck you don't have to play 40k at all. You can play many of the other 'indie' games, you can use them as monopoly or chess pieces, you can even play toy soldiers with your child.

We've had these same discussions so many times I hate to have to repost the same thing but....

GW are opening new stores, look at their web site.

They are launching new games (the one with ships and pirates).
They are releasing new expansions.

They are redoing sculpts and codex, adding new units, etc.

They don't just pay for designers and artists, they pay to keep them. The best are likely well known in their circles by now so GW has to pay enough that they won't leave with all their secrets.

[maugrim]

Or gather together a large enough pool of people who have sufficient money amongst themselves to purchase enough voting stock to demand change.

[Space is pretty big]

"Just to be clear before I say this Space but I agree with you"

Oh I know., I'm just still futzing with the idea of specialist buyers in general.

"You don't have to play with current rules. Heck you don't have to play 40k at all."

I'm... I'm not sure how you could so entirely fail to be empathetic to those who enjoy investing their creativity in the confined set of parameters of 40k...

[yoritomo]

Your premise is flawed.

There is a third reason to increase your prices on a regular basis which you have missed. That one is that you are undervaluing your product.

For example, let's say you're selling a wiget for ten dollars but the customer is willing to pay fifty dollars for it. Do you keep underselling your product? Do you raise the price to fifty dollars over night? How do you go about making the market price and actual value of the item match?

For commodies like oil and iron it's pretty simple, there are enough people buying and selling to see how much it is actually worth. Games Workshop can't do it this way because they are the only company putting out the volume of models at this time.

[Overread]

The canon 50mm f1.8 is all but useless until you put it on a DSLR That can cost you around £300 just for a new entry level DSLR. Camera - memory card - lens - tripod. Even if you stick to the very cheap end of the market you're looking at around maybe £4-600 for a rather entry level startup. For the same cost you can sink into GW you can get a pretty large army.


The point regarding codex advances and units being made obselite is a bit overstated here. I do agree and hate when GW makes older models or older weapon combos unusable in modern armies, however most of the time your regular bread and butter troops and forces will remain quite viable from edition to edition. So you can still keep using them and a new edition does not mean that you must suddenly sell of and buy a whole new 40K army to remain viable.


Now the US/UK markets might be showing a bit more of a divide here in prices; UK side I honestly see little difference in miniature prices between GW and most of the competition. The only difference is that most of the competition in wargames relies upon smaller armies for functional games.
Now some model producers which only act as a production facility of models might be able to produce their products for less, but you've got to factor into things that if they are a much smaller operation they are going to be able to produce for a lower cost. Take REAPER minis; a great many of the miniatures they make are old, they are always adding new things, but they also keep re-using old sculpts from years back. They don't suddenly revamp a whole segment of their market every few months (last time they did they needed a big Kickstarter to fund that change!)
GW, as part of its market and policy, changes its armies, adding new things and changing sculpts of existing minis to new versions - add into that rules development - add into that art assets for their books/full - add into that the shops on the highstreet (yes they can potentially earn you more, but they also cost you more to run as you've got to increase your investment before you get your return).

Also don't forget scale - Reaper are a big scale example, but a lot of the mini companies starting up are very small scale, producing only limited ranges of miniatures. That means that they are very different company structure to GW - small scale businesses can trade for less. On the flipside remember that many of these companies never make it big and a good few only appear for a short time before they fold or become bought-out. US side I'm aware that you've more lines of miniatures on the market, UK side its only in the last few years that we've actually started to see some more companies joining the fold and for a long long time it was GW only - then GW and PP - now we've a good few more trying to snag a corner of the cheap startup market.


There might also be import considerations for those over-seas. At some point the cost of shipping miniatures and/or for the establishment of production facilities in the US and other countries is going to cost - this might well mean that prices in those countries rise (however the whole subject of prices and price fixing is something not unique to GW and is a big area of contention in a market where many big companies still price regionally and where segments of the market are now trading internationally. GW has a bit of a head in the sand approach here with their restriction on export over international boundaries impoesd upon their independant traders).