Challenge Refusal Question

[maugrim]

No ****, this really happened. Ah, the beginning of a weird story.

Last night, playing a game a strange situation developed which isn't covered by the rules (surprise) so I thought I'd poke here to see what the consensus was. Player A has Blood Angels, Player B Grey Knights.

Blood Angels have a 9 strong Death Company joined by their Warlord Captain. They fail a charge against an Eversor and are standing there. Eversor walks up directly opposite the Captain, shoots the guy standing 2 rows back (Lo,S - who passes his FNP) then charges the closest model - the Captain. He challenges.

First question: If the Captain refuses the challenge, will he still take the brunt of the attacks on the squad as he is the only one in B2B with the Assassin on Init 7? The rules seem to support that, but it screws Player A (but rewards Player B's skillful movement/charge).

Challenge was accepted because we figured the answer to A was yes, he would take it on the chin. Failed to kill him because he successfully re-rolled a save with cheer power. Now comes Initiative 4.

Second question: Where do the Death Company pile in to? They should pile in to B2B with the enemy... but the enemy is "in challenge" and can't (shouldn't?) be in B2B with them? We figured they'd get close, but not in B2B - they couldn't affect the fight any more anyways.

BTW, assassin finally died a couple rounds later after the Captain finally stopped accepting the challenges.

Third question, off topic: If you Rend during shooting, does it count as AP 2?

[Illithid]

You played the first question how I played it the other day.

[coredump]

Yes the Captain would still take the attacks. But he could just use LOS to deflect them into the Death Co anyway.

As far as I can see, there is no restriction to the Challenger/gee being in base contact with other models. In fact, the rules work so that if you are in base to before the challenge, you don't necessarily leave that.
I would think they would pile into the assassin, but just not do much. (except provide those reroll from Moral Support.)


Rending AP2: against people yes, against vehicles, apparently not.

[gloomfang]

Jul 17, 2012 9:56:57 GMT maugrim said:

First question: If the Captain refuses the challenge, will he still take the brunt of the attacks on the squad as he is the only one in B2B with the Assassin on Init 7? The rules seem to support that, but it screws Player A (but rewards Player B's skillful movement/charge).

Second question: Where do the Death Company pile in to? They should pile in to B2B with the enemy... but the enemy is "in challenge" and can't (shouldn't?) be in B2B with them? We figured they'd get close, but not in B2B - they couldn't affect the fight any more anyways.

1) No he does not. The rules state that the declining model is moved to the back of the unit. There would then be no one in BtB with the Assassin.

2)The Death Company still pile into BtB with the Assassin as normal. They would not effect the fight this turn, but it might affect the next round.

3) Rending shots are still AP2.

[WestRider]

Jul 17, 2012 15:57:34 GMT gloomfang said:

1) No he does not. The rules state that the declining model is moved to the back of the unit. There would then be no one in BtB with the Assassin.

The Rules state no such thing. The fluff implies that he hangs in the back, but the Rules only talk about moving the Character's Model if he Accepts. If he Refuses, he can't strike, and the Unit can't use his Ld, but that's it.

[Jabberwocky]

Moving to the back is from fantasy. The rules only cover swapping btb models so the challengers can fight.

[gloomfang]

Jul 17, 2012 16:07:53 GMT WestRider said:

Jul 17, 2012 15:57:34 GMT gloomfang said:

1) No he does not. The rules state that the declining model is moved to the back of the unit. There would then be no one in BtB with the Assassin.

The Rules state no such thing. The fluff implies that he hangs in the back, but the Rules only talk about moving the Character's Model if he Accepts. If he Refuses, he can't strike, and the Unit can't use his Ld, but that's it.

I stand corrected. To many systems in my head.

[wisdomseyes1]

Jul 17, 2012 18:08:02 GMT gloomfang said:

Jul 17, 2012 16:07:53 GMT WestRider said:

The Rules state no such thing. The fluff implies that he hangs in the back, but the Rules only talk about moving the Character's Model if he Accepts. If he Refuses, he can't strike, and the Unit can't use his Ld, but that's it.

I stand corrected. To many systems in my head.

is understandable to make that assumption. i could take my WHFB rulebook out, count all my units as skirmishers, and almost play 40k.

[maugrim]

That's something I think somebody should do - do a rules comparison between Fantasy and 40k. Back when all the rumours were dropping I commented that GW bringing their two rules systems more into sync would only benefit them in the long run, and it looks like I was right.