|
|
Post by graeme27uk on Apr 19, 2011 21:55:05 GMT
Just out of interest, as a returning 40k player to the "new" 5th edition... why does the Chaos Space Marine codex get such a bad review?
Is Chaos SM not really that good any more?
Am I better off getting the latest newbie-craze that is Grey Knights?
|
|
|
|
Post by kenji10000 on Apr 19, 2011 21:58:24 GMT
We only have one Chaos player out of my group, he is pretty much always in top 5 or better. Some people just say SW, BA and IG are the only ways to be competitive. I respectfully disagree
|
|
|
|
Post by Geneva on Apr 19, 2011 22:16:31 GMT
IG, SW and BA are the three armies that you can most easily build a list with that auto wins through sheer brute force alone. No thinking required. Just point and kill.
But any player worth their salt can build a list just as good with a little tactical ingenuity and some experience with their list regardless of what they play with. Admitted, Tau and Crons have it rougher than others but Chaos is more than able to hold its own.
I've beaten Razorspam and Leafblower plenty of times. In part because it's almost the same game each time I've faced them. That's the problem with cookie-cutter lists. Everyone learns how to deal with them eventually.
|
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Apr 19, 2011 22:18:32 GMT
It's a reasonably solid Dex, it's just boring compared to its previous glory. Has less variety than even the Vanilla Loyalist Dex. I won't even grant it the name, referring to it instead as Codex: Spiky Marines.
It also scales oddly as the Points Limit varies. Because they have some of the best Troops units in the Game, they do very well in small Games, where your HQ and two Troops are going to be pretty central to the Army. But they don't really have much in the way of expensive, but powerful Units that they can start to bring as the Points Limit climbs, no DeathStar Unit is possible at all from the Dex. It's a very strong Dex at 1000 and below, pretty much breaks even with the rising power curve of the BA and IG Dexes at 1500, and starts to fall behind as you get much past there.
That said, even at 2K, it was a CSM Army that took Best General at the last Tournament I played in, against a field almost entirely composed of BA, SW, and GKs.
Successful CSM Lists tend to lean on Sorcerers and Daemon Princes (usually with Lash of Submission, but Princes sometimes go for Warptime instead), Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and regular CSM Squads, and Obliterators for Heavy Support. Vindicators, Land Raiders, and small Terminator or Chosen Squads sometimes make appearances as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by hive fleet pandora on Apr 19, 2011 22:37:17 GMT
the discussion is about chaos, but i will quickly put a word in for nids.
they pretty much have the worst dex in 40k, they get crapped on by everything, including grey knights.
anyway, back to chaos, i never really saw them as "competitive" but they can hold their own against some army's.
|
|
|
|
Post by lonelictor on Apr 19, 2011 22:49:29 GMT
I can't speak in terms of fifth, but in fourth the Chaos Codex is decent. Its somewhat competitive and has a very strong troop and HQ slot, but it's Fast Attack and Elite seem to be lacking (with the exception of Chosen Chaos Space Marines, you can have an entire squad with plasma pistols or force weapons).
In terms of fluff, the codex isn't as good as previous editions. Originally it had the Traitor Legions and a few splinter factions and renegade Chapters. They were pretty unique from Space Marines. Now however the Traitor Legends are ignored and somewhat forgotten, with only a few mentions. The Renegade Chapters could work, but instead of making them Chaos infused Space Marines, they're just Space Marines with spikes.
With a little bit of converting and ignoring some of the fluff (as all sane players do coughdraigocough) they'll still seem Chaotic though.
|
|
|
|
Post by Geneva on Apr 19, 2011 23:09:48 GMT
As Westrider alluded to, Chaos took a mighty fall with their last codex. The 3rd Ed Chaos codex is regarded by almost everyone I've met who has played with it as possibly the best codex ever written. It had tons of variety, epic fluff, interesting rules and Chaos Lords/Daemon Princes could essentially be anything they wanted to be. Their statline was almost as mutable as the 4th Ed Nid codex.
I also think the removal of specific Daemons was a huge blow to Chaos. Nowadays their essentially another variation codex of Marines. No different than Dark Angels or Space Wolves. Even less so in fact. The prime drawing factor of the Cult Marines is still there though.
|
|
|
|
Post by commandersasha on Apr 19, 2011 23:13:39 GMT
The older gamers I know who dislike it also object to the fact that it doesn't support fluffy players very well: Unless you are running Abaddon, who made pacts with all the dark gods, you shouldn't really have mixed god armies, but if you only stick to one, you will struggle.
I've always fancied a Tzeentch army, with Thousand sons, sorcerers and...and...err...Oh, that's it.
If the codex was more imaginative, there would be appropriate builds for more: older editions reflected the sacred numbers, so your Nurgle squads got a bump for taking squads of 7, but your Khornates got it for taking 8.
If I was in charge of the new C:CSM, I'd also have a mechanic for allies with C:Daemons.
Lash/Oblit is powerful, and Nurgle/Raider is stormproof, but they are both a little dull for either player. If you want a fun and fluffy army, C:CSM is not up to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by lonelictor on Apr 19, 2011 23:46:04 GMT
If I wrote the new codex, I'd have more Daemons, better Dreadnoughts and Possessed as while as more of an emphasis on Abaddon's accomplishments (he took Cadia, two Blackstone Fortresses, and outmaneuvered and killed a Primarch (Rogal Dorn), yet they understate this so much he's called Failbaddon) and I'd devote at least a page to the rules and fluff for each Traitor Legend, plus two or three Renegade Chapters like the Cleaved that need more fluff. I'd also make it clear that Chaos Space Marines aren't Space Marines. They have different motivations, different weaponry, and different battle tactics.
|
|
|
|
Post by graeme27uk on Apr 21, 2011 23:03:58 GMT
So if the 3rd Edition is better, then why use the 4th edition? Is it possible to uset he 3rd edition or would it be unbalanced in the newer 5th edition 40k rules?
Having read the 3rd Edition it is soooo much better than the 4th, I can't see why they got rid of all the funky stuff and made the 4th ed so boring.
|
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Apr 22, 2011 1:10:01 GMT
So if the 3rd Edition is better, then why use the 4th edition? Is it possible to uset he 3rd edition or would it be unbalanced in the newer 5th edition 40k rules? There'll be some of the same outdated references that cause problems with the Tau, Necron, and Witch Hunter Dexes, but I think it's about on par with most of the 5th Ed Dexes for raw power. If you can find Players willing to let you do that, go for it. I doubt you'll have much luck, though, and you'll never get anyone to let you enter a Tournament with it. Because Gav Thorpe hates all that is beautiful in this world. |
|
|
|
Post by wisdomseyes1 on Apr 22, 2011 2:33:57 GMT
GAV thrope has some good fluff...
though... i do wonder why they put the guy who wrote one of the 2 eldar books in charge of chaos space marines...
---------------------------
I don't believed in bad codecies... just bad players. The "bad" codecies are the ones that are harder to play...
The ones that are horridly out of date... I don't count necrons.. I can't count necrons... that wouldn't be fair.
As for CSM... I find them to be a biznitch to deal with...
|
|
|
|
Post by Major Chrispy on Apr 22, 2011 2:40:23 GMT
Hey I have necrons and there not bad.....sorry I just can't say that with a strait face. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ok...ok...im good....whew.... But yeah chaos, I love mine, lash + Chosen/oblits is sooooo deadly, but all hqs besides karn/daemon prince with lash are useless.....
|
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Apr 22, 2011 3:01:29 GMT
I don't believed in bad codecies... just bad players. The "bad" codecies are the ones that are harder to play... Again, I don't think CSM are underpowered, it's the fluff, feel, and flexibility of the Army that got trashed, not their overall power level. Codex: Spike Marines, I'm telling you. And also, as mentioned, I think the previous Chaos Dex was the best thing GW's put out in the 13 years I've been playing their Games. Pretty much anything was going to be a step down, but this was just a slap in the face. Actually, if you look at this as a direct successor to the 3.0 Chaos Dex, it's a decent step forward. Nothing to write home about, but it is a clear improvement over that in most ways. Just means you have to ignore the glory that came inbetween. |
|
|
|
Post by wisdomseyes1 on Apr 22, 2011 3:09:33 GMT
WestRider: Read my entire post... didn't say they are underpowered... I can barely ever beat them... Though I still think (for the fluff sake) that Games-workshop made a mistake putting the author of an eldar book in charge of CSM...
|
|
