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Post by ZergLord on Feb 27, 2009 17:01:25 GMT
Last year, I've downloaded the new Chaos codex just for fun, to see how much it sucks and laugh. Didn't really read it, though.
But couple of days ago, when I went through it a bit more, I realized it isn't as bad as everyone claims to be.
I researched the whole "The new Chaos codex sucks" thing, and found out that there are 3 types of people complaining:
1. The people who played Legions;
2. The people who played with Daemons;
3. The people who think that the new codex is weak and there are 1-2 lists that are viable.
Now, I can understand the Legion players (who really got screwed up even though you can emulate the Legions with the new rules) and the Daemon players (even though they deserved to get screwed up because the Deamons were overpowered), but I CAN'T understand the third group. What's so weak about this new book?
Chaos has one of the best Troop choices in the whole game. The Raptors are relatively cheap for what they're doing. Rhinos are good. Predators and Dreadnought and bikes (more or less) are OK. Defilers and Obliterators are great. HQ choices are good.
The only real problems that I see are some retarded units (Daemons, Spawn, Possessed), lack of variety in army building options, the army is now a bit more boring, and the presence of the Lash of Submission. Apart of that, the book is OK.
I'm not saying that this is a great book, no, it could've been much better, but it's not that bad as everyone claims to be. I actually think that CSM could be a fun army to play.
Can anyone explain to me why are people whining about Chaos Marines being weak unless playing a Lash list?
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Post by WestRider on Feb 27, 2009 19:16:12 GMT
Chaos is a very solid list. They actually have probably 3 of the top four Troops Choices in the game. (Basic CSMs, Berzerkers, and Plague Marines. Ork Boyz, I think, still come out on top when used right.)
Defilers are actually pretty lame, since they're trying to do too many things at once, and generally end up doing none of them particularly well. Even just a boost to WS4 would help a lot. Other than that, yeah, you're pretty much right on.
My complaint with the current Chaos Dex is just that it's boring. The previous version was, for my money, the most fun supplement that GW has put out since I started playing back in 2nd Ed. That and the fact that there are so many Units in there that could be substantially better with just minor changes: WS4 Defilers, Possessed rolling for their ability before Deployment, Bikes replacing their Twin-Bolter instead of CCW for Special Weapons, being able to buy Marks for Summoned Daemons, Eternal Warrior for Greater Daemons, and that's just off the top of my head.
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Post by esjyt on Mar 1, 2009 1:22:42 GMT
ive looked at the chaos SM codex just recently
just reviewing with what they can do
i have one grief and that is their point costs
why?well they give them all grenades and all that cool stuff, that is a problem because their costs are so high i dont ever want to be in combat with them.
my list was a trying to be cheese dual lash whip list
i ran two princes
3 noise marines squads(with blastmaster w/rhino with havoc missle launchers
1 group of plague marins with a personal icon
and two 3 man obliterators
i charged my plague marins forwar to put my obliterators in decent range(basicly i wanted to buddy them with my DPs
i had my 3 noise marines plug away at every in the rhino with havocs and soundblasts
so my army with 32 big bad wounds took on some ork list my buddy made with random ork units
obliterators made a nice entrance deepstrikeing and shooting heavy weapons because of slow and purposeful
nurgle marins wit rhino provided cover for a DP
not a bad list except
the only guys doing any moveing is the DP and thats only to lash stuff
long story short DPs=sheap hearding dog orks=sheap
not a bad army for 300 dollars via ebay average prices
i won the game because someone rolled double 1s on two saves...
2nd time arround id do MUCH better
demon princes are alot like hive tyrants
w/lash their at the same I as stealers
i could see myself dropping the plague marines for some more noise marines
(i wanna do an awesome punk rock army) if that means getting all older then old noise marins with awesome mohawks)
i dont have any grief with the codex its just that the codex maker doesnt think you should have extreme controll over your army selection
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Post by rebmonk on Mar 1, 2009 3:52:28 GMT
people who played legions got hosed, and no you cant even remotely do them in the new book.
how many thousands of basilisks out there are shelved?
can you scout with all your troops? no so you cannot do alpha legion
slaanesh got buffed, and tzeentch got buffed. the only way to make any competitive army is to use the 2
khorne got owned horribly, nurgle got a minor buff.
Like they said, its boring and stinks. Defiler's needed that nerf but tthey should have gotten something better in place of it.
I have an alpha legion friend, a khorne friend, an iron warriors friend, and a word bearers friend. Guess how many times ive seen any of their armies since the new book came out? 0.
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Post by esjyt on Mar 1, 2009 4:32:31 GMT
people who played legions got hosed, and no you cant even remotely do them in the new book. how many thousands of basilisks out there are shelved? can you scout with all your troops? no so you cannot do alpha legion slaanesh got buffed, and tzeentch got buffed. the only way to make any competitive army is to use the 2 khorne got owned horribly, nurgle got a minor buff. Like they said, its boring and stinks. Defiler's needed that nerf but tthey should have gotten something better in place of it. I have an alpha legion friend, a khorne friend, an iron warriors friend, and a word bearers friend. Guess how many times ive seen any of their armies since the new book came out? 0. i wish i knew.....it is a shame they didnt get the sweet hq system that space marines have |
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Post by WestRider on Mar 1, 2009 5:09:17 GMT
people who played legions got hosed, and no you cant even remotely do them in the new book. how many thousands of basilisks out there are shelved? can you scout with all your troops? no so you cannot do alpha legion slaanesh got buffed, and tzeentch got buffed. the only way to make any competitive army is to use the 2 khorne got owned horribly, nurgle got a minor buff. Like they said, its boring and stinks. Defiler's needed that nerf but tthey should have gotten something better in place of it. I have an alpha legion friend, a khorne friend, an iron warriors friend, and a word bearers friend. Guess how many times ive seen any of their armies since the new book came out? 0. Khorne got owned? Berzerkers are one of the best Troops Units in the game. Yes, you need to change it up a bit, but there's a guy in my group who still plays and regularly does well with a mostly Khorne army. (He does take one Lash) I still play my Alpha Legion. I miss my Cultists, but if I take two Squads of Chosen, some Deep Striking Termis, and maybe some Raptors, Bikes, or Rhino Squads, I can still get the same "Hit 'em from a bunch of different angles simultaneously" approach that's the hallmark of the Legion. Infiltration has only ever been one aspect of that, and anyone who thinks that is the sole trick the Alpha Legion has is missing out on a lot. Heck, I'm putting together a Word Bearers force right now as well. Similarly, it misses some things that the Old Dex could have done, but so far it's performed reasonably well, and I feel it still holds to the fluff. They were pretty variable, anyhow. Their only special Rules were for the Dark Crozius, which works just fine as a Daemon Weapon, and getting more Troops Choices to take Daemons, which they can still do since Daemons don't take up FOC slots. I've seen some pretty effective Death Guard lists as well. Plague Marines are rock hard, and can really dish out a lot of pain when they hop out of the Rhinos and Rapid Fire. Very difficult to shift off an Objective, as well. T6 Bikers are pretty fun, too. I admit, I stopped playing Chaos for over a year because of this new Dex, but as I've looked over it more and focused on recapturing the theme of my old Legion forces rather than making them work the same Model for Model, I've found that they actually hold together fairly well. Anybody who can't adapt to it doesn't care enough to properly try. |
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Post by esjyt on Mar 1, 2009 5:37:57 GMT
another problem i found playing them is there is a 32 tottal wound count in my army
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Post by depletor [H5ed] on Mar 1, 2009 16:59:58 GMT
I am a legion player. Deathguard. They are really tough but it is not cool anymore. No HQ choices besides the demonprince and typhus. We need only a few things:
HQs with Plaguemarine profile
Death Guard Terminators with T5 and FnP
Plaguebearers, Nurglings, Beasts
a GUO
What is so ugly with that is that nearly all of these units have a profile and point costs. We want a legions codex!!! Even if it was not competitive! It would be so easy!
Other than that: why do chaos marines have demons that shock and assault whereas other demons don't? And what sort of demons is this? All this makes the whole thing with chaos so "uneven"!
The Chaos codex lacks character! Not power!
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Post by esjyt on Mar 1, 2009 19:55:37 GMT
I am a legion player. Deathguard. They are really tough but it is not cool anymore. No HQ choices besides the demonprince and typhus. We need only a few things: HQs with Plaguemarine profile Death Guard Terminators with T5 and FnP Plaguebearers, Nurglings, Beasts a GUO What is so ugly with that is that nearly all of these units have a profile and point costs. We want a legions codex!!! Even if it was not competitive! It would be so easy! Other than that: why do chaos marines have demons that shock and assault whereas other demons don't? And what sort of demons is this? All this makes the whole thing with chaos so "uneven"! The Chaos codex lacks character! Not power! well if you are just playing for fun why not just import those units in the chaos daemons codex i could see some issues but like icons would have a role, hmmmmm i could homebrew this so easy |
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Post by CylonDorado on Mar 1, 2009 20:13:51 GMT
I am a legion player. Deathguard. They are really tough but it is not cool anymore. No HQ choices besides the demonprince and typhus. We need only a few things: HQs with Plaguemarine profile Death Guard Terminators with T5 and FnP Plaguebearers, Nurglings, Beasts a GUO What is so ugly with that is that nearly all of these units have a profile and point costs. We want a legions codex!!! Even if it was not competitive! It would be so easy! Other than that: why do chaos marines have demons that shock and assault whereas other demons don't? And what sort of demons is this? All this makes the whole thing with chaos so "uneven"! The Chaos codex lacks character! Not power! Yeah... No to nurgle termies, and no to power weapons that assault after deep striking. |
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Post by depletor [H5ed] on Mar 1, 2009 22:27:12 GMT
What is the matter with nurgle termies? Plasma, laser, Melter, Powerweapons ... no FnP! It would be just 40 points each! That is 5 points to a tyrant guard!
But of course no assault after deep striking. I recommend Slow and Purposeful for death Guard Terminators
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Post by Zemox on Mar 2, 2009 9:58:15 GMT
One of those termies would kick the bio-plasma out of a tyrant guard anyway  I mean you got Powerfist, storm bolter, T5, FNP, 2+armorsave, 5+invurnable save, i mean seriousley.... GW would demand 60points for each of those. |
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Post by depletor [H5ed] on Mar 2, 2009 15:31:45 GMT
You really overestimate them!
What I'd propose as rule: Slow and Purposeful!
If you face them, take rending creatures or battlecannons or devil stuff. There isn't much difference to assault termies from Space Marine Codex or some Space Wolfes!
I propose:
HQ:
Demon Prince, Great Unclean One, Psyker and Lord
Elite:
Uber-Terminators, Beasts, Cybots (not so unreliable version)
Troops:
Plaguemarines
Plaguebearers
Nurglings (don't count, don't score)
Fast:
Death Guard in Rhinos
Support:
Defilers, LandRaiders, Vindicators, Predators
Special Rule: All demons may come in as reserve.
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Post by esjyt on Mar 3, 2009 1:18:06 GMT
well to be honest
FNP on a termie is nigh rediculos
the only thing i could think of throwing at that would be a melee hivetyrant and i would have to get good roles or die
they would be BEASTS to kill
a 2+ is easy but with fnp its rediculos
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Post by Aux on Mar 3, 2009 4:55:50 GMT
I had a legion codex made up awhile ago with my friend.... pm me if you want it
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