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Post by Devil's Advocate on Apr 20, 2012 15:08:15 GMT
Well, now, why am I not terribly surprised?
Oh wait, I know - because Yori is a soldier, and a father.
I'm going to put aside the whole bit about forum rules and all that. Not my place to make that call. except for this one small thing that I can't get out of my head: you realize that's a model, right? and that every day we post pictures of models murdering someone, right? what about the dark elf and slannesh models that are exposed in a similar manner? Blatant, unthinking hypocrisy bothers me, Yori. It bothers me about as much as when someone says to you "Soldiers are criminals"
What I am going to call out are your gross assumptions - I don't think ANYONE here has said "that's what war is, Soldiers are criminals and rape poor unfortunate people when the killing's done."
I think the "civilized" nations have done an EXCELLENT job making sure MOST of their soldiers act in a civilized manner. They very professionally get the job done, protect those that need protecting, and do what needs to get done.
THAT SAID -
You absolutely cannot deny the fact that rape, murder, theft, and any number of other criminal activities occur during war time. That Cony dude in Africa (and any of a number of other African warlords over the years) uses his soldiers to subjugate those around him by rape, murder, kidnapping and worse. There's the recent scandals of the American soldiers peeing on corpses, waving around blasted limbs. The list of atrocities committed by soldiers of any nation is unbelievably long.
Are the crimes perpetrated by those few representative of the entire force? Not by a long shot.
But these kinds of things need to be exposed. We, as human beings, must be vigilant of temptation to do these kinds of things. We have to stop it before it happens, and punish those who we don't stop in time. We're all human, Yori. Even Soldiers. We all think for ourselves, we all have our own values and can make our own decisions. Art like this can be used as a teachable moment. For 5 year olds? maybe not. 10 year olds? possibly. 15 year olds? I'll guarantee you they've seen worse.
The dehumanizing effect of war, our need to make the enemy NOT human so we can actually accept killing them is what leads to those terrible moments. It's natural human behavior. It's something people, Soldiers, Leaders have done throughout history. We do it because it's necessary. Now, throw it into the context of the 41st millenium. Eldar definitely AREN'T human. How much easier will it be to kill them? to perform that kind of crime against them? You realize you leaped right over those questions and straight on to the rape? Never mind the fact that the other option is likely to be MURDER?
On the one hand, it's reassuring you reacted so vehemently against what is being depicted. On the other hand, if this piece of art DOESN'T make you stop for a second to question, to think, it makes me wonder what you actually ARE going to be passing on to those around you.
Just some food for thought.
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Post by voraciousapathy on Apr 20, 2012 15:11:50 GMT
+1.
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Post by Rakuall on Apr 20, 2012 15:32:17 GMT
I'd like to see this picture that has Yori so worked up. Maybe PM me a link (to avoid invoking more Modly Wrath).
And to Yori, This may be a 'Family Friendly' Forum, but we (and GW, but that's a whole 'nother rant) need to upgrade the whole hobby to Teen+ (like, if you can drive, you're probably ready to play). Most little kids have nowhere near the attention span required to play, the mental development to deal with all the rules, the maturity to handle the themes presented responsibly, or the tactical capability to make fun opponents for the 90% of 16+ players. If your kid wants to start painting Space Bugs or super soldiers that's one thing (and probably a good one), but to fully immerse a young mind in this hobby is to do it a disservice.
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Post by N.I.B. on Apr 20, 2012 16:14:26 GMT
Agree with DA.
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Post by swarmy on Apr 20, 2012 16:17:22 GMT
I took a look at that piece the other day. Yes, I suppose you can call it art in the sense that it does elicit a strong reaction out of the viewer and required the hand of an artist to complete. The big problem it smashes into is the same problem with so much modern art nowadays: Just because you can elicit a strong reaction in a provocative manor it's not always a good reason to do it. In my opinion the lack of tact is one of the biggest problems with art today. When I say tact I do not mean filtering or censoring to be clear. I have never thought the goal of an art piece should be to infuriate or alienate people.
This is supposed to be a fun hobby with over-the-top science fiction depictions of war and fantastical creatures. Dragging in grim and unfortunate parts of humanity into our fun escapist fantasy seems pretty uncalled for. How did they think the dialogue revolving around the piece would go anywhere good? It's rather toxic. Furthermore, I don't think Yori was out of line. It obviously struck a chord for him as a soldier and the depiction was intended to provocatively suggest a connection to reality. In the internet that narrative gets boiled down, misrepresented, and oversimplified to soldiers=criminals. How could you not be offended as a soldier?
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Post by Dro on Apr 20, 2012 16:45:25 GMT
I don't think he over reacted, just because it may or may not happen doesn't make it any less disgusting to be put into model form.
(I could be thinking of a different pic :/)
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Post by Hive Fleet Cthulhu on Apr 20, 2012 17:27:17 GMT
I saw the pic the other day. And while I agree the subject is a little... delicate... it is a fantastic piece of art. I don't believe what the artist is saying is: "Yeah, rape is good... rape happens in war all the time." I believe he was simply trying to say: "War is a cruel thing. And unspeakable things happen in it. And in the end there is no good or bad side, for everyone must endure the loss of someone they care for." However being a family friendly forum, I can understand Yori's reaction to this.
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Post by Devil's Advocate on Apr 20, 2012 17:41:11 GMT
I took a look at that piece the other day. Yes, I suppose you can call it art in the sense that it does elicit a strong reaction out of the viewer and required the hand of an artist to complete. The big problem it smashes into is the same problem with so much modern art nowadays: Just because you can elicit a strong reaction in a provocative manor it's not always a good reason to do it. In my opinion the lack of tact is one of the biggest problems with art today. When I say tact I do not mean filtering or censoring to be clear. I have never thought the goal of an art piece should be to infuriate or alienate people. So instead of having society censor it, you're implying that the artist should self-censor? The other day, I listened to a news report on NPR about a solider who raps about his experience, not just while he was in the warzone, but on the homefront as well. I HATE rap. I hate the cadences, the structure, the sound. but should he stop? HECK [stronger language desired] NO. Humans express themselves however they are able. Just because the sculptor made this piece in a masterful manner doesn't mean he's able to write a poem about what he's trying to get across or draw a picture, or write a speech. --I'm not going to say any more, because it will make me more than a little angry. I'm not saying Yori's wrong for being offended. That would be like saying it's the Eldar's fault she could be raped. I'm saying that Yori's perspective may be off, and he may wish to re-think that a little. |
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Post by yoritomo on Apr 20, 2012 17:44:57 GMT
What seems to escape people is that this was someone being raped. I don't care if "it was just art". That (please do not swear) has no business being anywhere around here. Let me ask the women on the forum a question, do you want to see pictures of women getting raped on The Tyranid Hive?
Of course not.
I don't care if it is though provoking, it is still the most offensive thing you could possably post. I can tell you right now that if my wife saw that I'd no longer be a moderator here. This site would be blocked on out computer. And you know what, I kind of agree with her. I've also had to deal with fallout of rape. It's not pretty, and I wasn't even the victim.
As far as I'm concerned there is no "overreacting" to rape.
And rape being one of the "horrors of war"? No. Rape is a criminal act. All you do when you equate rape to war is tell Soldiers that they are criminals.
You know what, I can't finish this. It brings up too many bad memories of the real horrors of war. If you really think I'm overreacting fine. I'm still not putting up with these images on this site.
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Post by killercroc on Apr 20, 2012 18:00:56 GMT
What seems to escape people is that this was someone being raped. I don't care if "it was just art". That (please do not swear) has no business being anywhere around here. Let me ask the women on the forum a question, do you want to see pictures of women getting raped on The Tyranid Hive? Of course not. I don't care if it is though provoking, it is still the most offensive thing you could possably post. I can tell you right now that if my wife saw that I'd no longer be a moderator here. This site would be blocked on out computer. And you know what, I kind of agree with her. I've also had to deal with fallout of rape. It's not pretty, and I wasn't even the victim. As far as I'm concerned there is no "overreacting" to rape. And rape being one of the "horrors of war"? No. Rape is a criminal act. All you do when you equate rape to war is tell Soldiers that they are criminals. You know what, I can't finish this. It brings up too many bad memories of the real horrors of war. If you really think I'm overreacting fine. I'm still not putting up with these images on this site.  I agree with Yori, yeah they are models but it is still about rape. I don't like rape do you? I hope not so why not leave it off the forum. |
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Post by Geneva on Apr 20, 2012 18:22:43 GMT
I would just like to take the opportunity to say that I never in a million years meant to imply that all soldiers are rapists or that such conduct was the norm in the armed forces. I felt the piece brought attention to the darkest horrors of war. The shameful parts of human history that are often overlooked. Indeed such events have occurred down throughout history and persist even in the modern world. I felt it reminded us never to forget the true nature of death, conflict and the effects they can have on humanity and that war isn't always about medals and glory.
The very reason I made the thread at all was because I myself was conflicted in how I felt about the model. I knew the post was going to be controversial from the very beginning but I didn't quite expect quite the response it received. I still believe it is a topic well worth discussing and I do wish that I had been given a chance to defend my position before the thread was locked. Still, I understand now that it may have been too sensitive a matter to bring to this kind of a forum and I apologise to any who may have been offended. The diorama was implicit rather than graphic and that was the reason I thought it may be tolerated within the site's rules. Clearly I was wrong about that.
I have no intentions of spreading fallout from the original thread. If it is at odds with the moderators of this forum I will humbly withdraw and respect their decision. However, if I am to be entirely honest, I did take some offense to the hostility to Yori's closing comment but, considering this was a topic that heated the blood of many involved, I can understand his anger.
In short, I don't want to see bad blood come of an image I posted when I myself didn't even know what to think of it. Perhaps it's best if the subject was dropped and all involved took their own opinions and left one another with theirs. My intention was to provoke discussion on a model. Not turn members against each other.
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Post by commandersasha on Apr 20, 2012 18:35:22 GMT
Well said, Genevaman.
In the interests of Hive peace, I suggest this thread, like its parent, be quietly closed.
For those that wish to see models that fall outside the scope of a family friendly forum, coolminiornot is where you will find mini art that goes beyond tabletop gaming.
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Post by Devil's Advocate on Apr 20, 2012 18:58:43 GMT
Closing your eyes does not make things go away. They're still there, you're just trying to ignore them.
But then, maybe this is one more place where I differ with so many other people.
If you're conflicted on how to feel about something, Genevaman, then your first instinct was the right one. Talk about it. Hash it out. Think about it. We should be honored that you came to the Hive, as one brings topics like this to people they trust, people they respect.
It's unfortunate that you're feeling pressured to shut up and not talk about it.
As far as the most offensive thing one could post? No.
Not by a long shot. On two counts:
1. It's a bleeding model. a sculpture. not a photograph of real people. I'm sure somewhere on the internet we could dig up something far more offensive and far more real.
2. One poster on CoolMiniOrNot commented that (like all art) it's all in our heads.
why not a different narrative?
The eldar may be a cautious ally of the humans.
the guy with the gun might be worried she is going to kill someone.
the guy with the breastplate might be kindly returning it to the lady.
the guy off to the side might be returning from taking a leak around the corner.
the sergeant may be concernedly keeping a watch out for tyranids on their way to attack.
the looker-on may be having a good laugh about the whole thing.
another perspective might be that this is the moment right before this 1000 year-old combat expert grabs the knife from the ground next to her and kills every last one of the stinking mon-keighs.
My perspective is that if our reaction to something so meticulously created and carefully, perfectly executed is offense, rage, anger, hate - what does that say about us? THIS is what is important. Not what the actual object is. Our reaction is what must be examined, thought through, looked at and considered.
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Post by andy089 on Apr 20, 2012 19:35:55 GMT
Okay so...
We are building and painting miniatures that
"rips victims apart in an explosion of gore" (tyranid codex pg 81),
"rip moisture out of victims bodies until nothing remains but a dry, shriveled husk" (tyranid codes pg82),
"strangle and ensnare those who are not ripped apart by the bony hooks at the tip of each tentacle" (nids codex as well),
"reducing rocks, metal and living material to molten slag or ash" (codex Blood Angels),
"shred armored and unarmored foes alike" (blood angels codex),
"drives his enemies blood into a seething frenzy, causing it to burst from every pore with explosive finality" (blood angels),
I am not going on, you see where I am going: How is THIS "family friendly"?
People are usually KILLED in that game you play and for me there isn't any difference between murder and killing someone in war.
So I don't quite understand what people are getting upset about...
I think if this should be banned, so should be dioramas of people being killed.
Also: If an eldar lady crashed her vehicle and is hurt (which she would obviously cover in the presence of apparent enemies) in her chest-area (thus the removed plate), needing something like a belt to stop the bleeding (thats why the guy is fiddling around with his trousers) while someone has to watch her since she won't understand your language (the lasgun-pointung guy) and you aren't actually allowed to help her (the boss looking away), with one guy who just is into xenos ladies (the driver), you see that pic in a different angle, even though we all know what's going on.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Apr 20, 2012 20:14:16 GMT
I don't think this should be about art and censorship.
The simple fact is, this is a moderated forum, not a public service. Yori has a job to do, which he does well. Even if people don't read or adhere to the rules, Yori and the other mods still have to uphold them, regardless of personal opinion. People would do well to remember and respect that.
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