Warriors vs genestealers math query

[Kyokii]

Alright, I got some dumb plans but unsure of how to proceed:
For 230 pts I can take a prime, 6 warriors and fight first.
For 245 I can take a broodlord, 10 genestealers and fight first.
Warriors have: 6 atk, S5 ap-2 D1; hit on 3+, reroll 1s to hit, sustained hits 1, twin linked

Genestealers have: 4 atk s4 ap-2 D1; hit on 2+, reroll 1s to hit, reroll 1s to wound devastating wounds.

Can give either unit lethal hits 6+.

We have t5 4+ 3w warriors and t3 5++ 2w stealers.

How do the profiles compare? I can pull up a math hammer thing so it's more a question of general profiles to compare to. But what're y'all's thoughts? I'm leaning toward warriors since they're a touch chunkier in cover and has more "feel good" restoring a model to.

Edit: currently the more active armies around me are marines, chaos marines, death guard, orks, and a bit of deldar and deldar.

[gauntlet]

What gives them Fights First?

[Kyokii]

Jun 4, 2024 20:14:24 GMT gauntlet said:

What gives them Fights First?

Assimilation swarm has an enhancement.
Instinctive defense: always Fights first and 0cp heroic intervention when within 6" of a harvester.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Personal opinion for me is that it matters what you'll be going against. Genestealers with brood lords have dev wounds so they can crack tougher targets. Warriors are generally better in assimilation swarm for bringing back 3 wounds vs 2 wounds on the stealers.

In my assimilation swarm list, I brought warriors. I hadn't considered genestealers.

[Kyokii]

Jun 4, 2024 20:41:52 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

Personal opinion for me is that it matters what you'll be going against. Genestealers with brood lords have dev wounds so they can crack tougher targets. Warriors are generally better in assimilation swarm for bringing back 3 wounds vs 2 wounds on the stealers.

In my assimilation swarm list, I brought warriors. I hadn't considered genestealers.

Good point. I was asking for various profiles and thoughts but would be better to narrow down.
Haven't had a chance to play for a while but it looks like it's mostly csm, death guard, orks, the occasional elder and deldar.
I'm used to nid numbers atm so I'm not terribly sure of averages in other armies.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Jun 4, 2024 21:06:23 GMT Kyokii said:

Jun 4, 2024 20:41:52 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

Personal opinion for me is that it matters what you'll be going against. Genestealers with brood lords have dev wounds so they can crack tougher targets. Warriors are generally better in assimilation swarm for bringing back 3 wounds vs 2 wounds on the stealers.

In my assimilation swarm list, I brought warriors. I hadn't considered genestealers.

Good point. I was asking for various profiles and thoughts but would be better to narrow down.
Haven't had a chance to play for a while but it looks like it's mostly csm, death guard, orks, the occasional elder and deldar.
I'm used to nid numbers atm so I'm not terribly sure of averages in other armies.

Warriors will do great damage into any of those barring tough vehicle spam. The thing to watch out for is AP-2 and AP-3 or 3 damage weapons. Warriors will melt to that and no amount of bringing one back a turn will help. Use them as a counter charge threat

[Kyokii]

Jun 4, 2024 22:53:50 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

Jun 4, 2024 21:06:23 GMT Kyokii said:

Good point. I was asking for various profiles and thoughts but would be better to narrow down.
Haven't had a chance to play for a while but it looks like it's mostly csm, death guard, orks, the occasional elder and deldar.
I'm used to nid numbers atm so I'm not terribly sure of averages in other armies.

Warriors will do great damage into any of those barring tough vehicle spam. The thing to watch out for is AP-2 and AP-3 or 3 damage weapons. Warriors will melt to that and no amount of bringing one back a turn will help. Use them as a counter charge threat

That's the general plan, have them sit kind of between the midfield objectives neatlr a pair of harvesters and counter charge whatever comes. Nervous about their movement being less but that's probably not near as big a deal if I don't plan on them going far.
Think I'm sticking with warriors. If only cause they're cheaper for the package deal. Gonna get a few games in with them

[ausnid]

I'd generally lean towards warriors as they give you higher damage output into a broader range of targets (niche exception to this being spiking your dev wounds with the gs against a target with a good invuln/AP reduction). They can also provide the benefit of providing synapse to your harvesters sitting out there (who may have their strategem use otherwise restricted if they fail battleshock). The movement is less, but this can be mitigated through the Prime with its greater movement effectively providing the unit with an increased threat range.

[nidzy]

Remember you can give either squad lethal as as well. I personally think the warriors are a better overall value and output but I haven’t done any math.

[Kyokii]

Update! Played a game last night vs death guard and uh. Good lord.
I really need to bring a second psychophage but I don't have one, but that's beside the point: warriors kinda slap.

I forgot to give them lethal hits but venomthrope and phage support kept them alive just enough to get regenerated. I think they will be overall better than genestealers if only for the fact you can gain 3 somewhat higher quality wounds back vs 2 on one regeneration.
Got to counter charge with them cause dg player was stuck going after them or the tyrant guard and chose the guard because fights first was unappealing and he went with a gamble on me failing the 6" counter charge. Full plague marine squad with that -1 to hit contagion so it was not the best feeling to swing into but still took 6/10 with mediocre sustains and rerolling wounds well.

Regeneration shenanigans meant I effectively played with 9 warriors over 3 turns. They did all die to death shroud guns but don't care; caused trouble.

[ausnid]

Nice - Death guard are a pretty brutal match up for non monster mash nids due to their easy access to fights first plague marine blobs, painful indirect and anti infantry shooting, so you’re doing well if you can get warriors (or gs) to shine in that match up

[Kyokii]

Jun 6, 2024 9:00:19 GMT ausnid said:

Nice - Death guard are a pretty brutal match up for non monster mash nids due to their easy access to fights first plague marine blobs, painful indirect and anti infantry shooting, so you’re doing well if you can get warriors (or gs) to shine in that match up

Anti infantry on tyrant guard is pain

Played a second game with current list, also against death guard. My opponent learned from his mistakes and did not charge anywhere near the warriors; opting to shoot at them. Though he didn't manage much damage on them, killing 2 and I brought one back.
I failed a 6" charge I was aiming to move block with and they got wiped after. Tyrant guard also got taken out via mass concentrated firepower and 2 death shroud units charging them. But, way too many resources dedicated to the tyrant guard caused bad placement for him and a 70-30 win for me.

Psychophage just ate gunfire, not just from good rolls on my part or bad on his. 2 crawlers, the land raider lascannons, the remainder of his big plague marine squad and it still wouldn't go down until the fight phase and even then it ate the purifier.

I now have a second psychophage and am going to finish painting my last 3 zoanthropes. The barbed hierodule is fun but it's guns just cannot crack armor at s8. I can drop it for the second psycho 6 zoanthropes, give tervigon the +1s enhancement, and stick a second ripper to one unit for an extra couple inches (heh) of regeneration range.

New query!
2x3 or 1x6 for zoanthropes? 2 squads makes it easier to wipe one but can regenerate potentially 2 per turn or the one big one for more consistent survival.

I'd ask about maleceptor but I have none and don't care for the model that much personally.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I personally ran 1x6 but I was more concerned that they'd die to firepower before I could get any brought back on 2x3

[Kyokii]

Well, with the new changes the warriors are a no brainer with s6 as it is a bigger break point than S5 on a lot of the local armies (lot of t5+ stuff like death guard)

Neurotyrant can join zoanthropes so a 1x6 is likely the way to go and now I need to see if I can fit a second one in for that huge damage buff. Or drop the tyrant guard I have going; though they're also now s9 in melee and they take a lot to kill.

[purestrain]

What about a prime in assimilation with 6 melee warriors with +1S for melee and +1 attacks if they nuke something near a harvester?

6 s8 ap-2 1d attacks each with his 6 s8 ap-1 2d attacks could do serious work (being 7 each if they nuke something, of course having sustained and the warrior blobs twin linked)