10th Edition Tyranid Index Competitive Review

[stormcoil]

Jun 22, 2023 6:18:27 GMT dkng said:

Dear OP
Fantastic review, thank you very very much for this.
Can you say something about Stratagems? Which were useful? Which ones you used most often and in what circumstances?

Rapid Regeneration (aka Catalyst) is the most useful strat.  Staying on the board is one of our main problems.

Synaptic Insight can be good if you need to push a little more damage through, but it is more situational than RR.  Fortunately this is a command phase buff that can improve your shooting as well as combat.

Overrun is very niche. 

Death Frenzy is fights on death.... which I think they had to give us seeing as how we are subpar in combat.  But if you are using that strat a lot you have much bigger problems.

Adrenal surge is OK, and is I think supposed to be our big combo piece.  However it only works in the fight phase, and we have very few legitimate fight phase units.

Endless Multitude is bad.  Hordes are bad, and they have to live to be able to bring models back.  If it worked like GSC that would be different.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Jun 22, 2023 15:41:52 GMT infornography said:

Yeah, problem with hordes is that blasts are everywhere and destroy hordes. Additionally, aside from the relatively few anti-tank weapons, everything else will be effective against them.
Maybe as the META shifts around we will see an opening for an effective horde list, but with so much artillery being fielded, I honestly don't see it until things get a major rebalance.

My concern is more the indirect fire than blast. At most, blast gives an extra 4 shots against termagant hordes. Indirect means I can't hide.

I respect all the thought process and testing that went into this review, but I don't see where we can put tough or out antitank other armies.

[infornography]

All depends on what you mean by other armies. DG? easy. Marines? We can't.

[phenatix]

I don’t know about you all, but Space Marines have always been the most popular faction everywhere I’ve been. I regularly see half or more of all armies some flavor or color of Space Marines. It’s a major game design problem if the most popular faction is also one of the most powerful, to the point of oppressively so. Honestly the Oath of Moments ability is ridiculous and I’m surprised that was allowed in the edition of “reduced lethality.”

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Jun 22, 2023 20:18:47 GMT infornography said:

All depends on what you mean by other armies. DG? easy. Marines? We can't.

Marines and guard are mostly what I'm thinking about.

[infornography]

The balance definitely feels seriously out of whack right now and it isn't likely to improve significantly for the better part of a year.
Just buckle up and prepare for a rough ride until this edition gets its stride.

[No One]

stormcoil said:

In my limited games it seems the stuff I want to slow down is immune to the slow down debuff.

Going through basically everything I believe, the only ones who can ignore with infantry are:
- Aforementioned GK/Traj leading
- Sisters with strat
- Guard with attached Cadian command squad
- Morty aura
- SK with aura choice (gives up rrs/whatever his 3rd choice is)

So I'd say the vast majority of armies/lists will have all their infantry vulnerable, and those that don't will have most of their infantry vulnerable. That bit doesn't seem a huge concern and I think you got unlucky (though if Custodes are one of the main reasons you want it and a Traj brick is common...does drop in value). The bigger issue is I agree there's not likely to be a massive amount of infantry you want to slow down and can actually see to shoot. 'Crons are the only ones where that feels like it'll come up reliably. Otherwise...vehicles/MCs are pretty common...

Regarding anti-character stuff.... I don't like giving up assassinate points if I don't have to, and there are a number of units with anti-character attacks out there as well. It's not a huge downside, and the increase in invuln and wounds is nice. I think 5 points more is about right. Still, personally, I usually run Lictors first.

Oh yeah, didn't think of assassinate with tactical cards: was only thinking we're not taking enough Chars to ever give up fixed assassinate.

If the Haruspex is correct at 125 that makes that unit useable. The only issue then is why are carnifex and screamer killers so overcosted in comparison? Either way it shows poor internal balance.

Poor balance (internal and external) is the edition in a nutshell. In this case, SK problem rather than haru: I think SK's worse than almost every other MC we have.

hivefleetkerrigan said:

My concern is more the indirect fire than blast. At most, blast gives an extra 4 shots against termagant hordes. Indirect means I can't hide.

It might be 'only' +4 shots, but for most blast weapons that's a large increase in shot count (e.g. even D6+3 that's an almost 2/3 increase. For D6, or even D3? Massive difference when you've got a decent number of blast weapons. Oh hi there desolators).

phenatix said:

Honestly the Oath of Moments ability is ridiculous and I’m surprised that was allowed in the edition of “reduced lethality.”

Don't forget, also the edition with "reduced rerolls"

[nidsallday]

Jun 23, 2023 4:44:30 GMT No One said:

stormcoil said:

phenatix said:

Honestly the Oath of Moments ability is ridiculous and I’m surprised that was allowed in the edition of “reduced lethality.”

Don't forget, also the edition with "reduced rerolls"

yeah, kinda funny that they present 10th as "less lethal, less rerolls to speed up the game" and then give the most prevalent army full hit and wound reroll. but not only smurfs, i feel like every army has access to do sooo much rerolls, its absurd.

[dkng]

Jun 23, 2023 8:29:23 GMT nidsallday said:

Jun 23, 2023 4:44:30 GMT No One said:

Don't forget, also the edition with "reduced rerolls"

yeah, kinda funny that they present 10th as "less lethal, less rerolls to speed up the game" and then give the most prevalent army full hit and wound reroll. but not only smurfs, i feel like every army has access to do sooo much rerolls, its absurd.

Tyranids don’t

[nidsallday]

Jun 23, 2023 12:32:57 GMT dkng said:

Jun 23, 2023 8:29:23 GMT nidsallday said:

yeah, kinda funny that they present 10th as "less lethal, less rerolls to speed up the game" and then give the most prevalent army full hit and wound reroll. but not only smurfs, i feel like every army has access to do sooo much rerolls, its absurd.

Tyranids don’t

yeah, we didnt get the same toughness buff as vehicles, and our rerolls (maybe asside ooe hit rerolls) are very lackluster. and we are amongst the worst army rules. :/

[parzaius]

Less lethal and fewer rerolls for some, certainly. The office favorites at GW don't get the same treatment.

Remember when Tyranids could ignore the negative effects of morale? Well, now Dark Angels do that instead.
Remember when Genestealers could advance and charge? Well, now all marines can do that instead.
Remember when Zoanthropes had 3++ saves? Well, Lion does that now instead.
Remember when Old One Eye came back from the dead? Well, Gilliman and a type of dreadnought does that instead.
Remember when Carnifexes did mortal wounds by charging? Well, now a type of dreadnought does that instead, AND all VEHICLES too, through a stratagem that does not work for MONSTERS despite monsters being the source of the original rule.

And that's to say nothing of how Tyranids had the original "Reroll To Wound rolls" through Living Ammo rule, long before anybody else had it, and that's all gone now too.

Xenos are where rules are workshopped, and the good ones get moved over to Imperials instead.

[mattblowers]

I think that 40K is at it's best when it's a beer and pretzels game. The most fun I ever have is when I am just playing to have fun. It doesn't hurt if I am a bit buzzed. When I start going competitive it almost always ruins the game for me. I always feel caught between hating that my army sucks and not wanting to netlist with the new hotness. It's a constant pull. I have enough armies (over 100,000 points of 40K) to always play something that is on the bleeding edge, but I hate playing the meta chasers. I suspect that they feel the same way I do when chasing the meta and focus becomes on only playing the very best. This leads to hyper focus on winning and then if I lose a game I feel like the event is over for me. I've seen many times where someone spends weeks getting ready for a tournament and then drops on day 1 after their first loss.

OK, so our index sucks. Adjust your expectations. Let's find the best units we have and give it a go. The look on the face when you beat a meta chaser with a "bad army" is very satisfying.

And if you are new to the hive, disappointment is what fuels our souls. Besides the codex from last year, nearly every release of 'nids have been met with intense disappointment. Expect dissapointment as a 'nid player so you can be pleasantly surprised with mediocrity.

[ilovethenids]

Looks like, as with almost every other edition, the bugs got screwed over.

Hardly the first time Eldar were ridiculously OP though, so that's not too much of a surprise. Just shows that GW haven't learned from their mistakes.

The one good thing for me at least is that this means I can keep most of the models from the Leviathan box unassembled and unpainted since most are (please do not swear). At most I'll paint the Psychophage and Neurotyrant.

Since there's a local Warhammer store I won't be able to do homebrew like I did for 6th and 7th, so I'm just gonna save my money and stay away until we get good rules. That day may never come though so I may end up shelving 40k permanently.

[gauntlet]

Jun 23, 2023 13:41:39 GMT mattblowers said:

I think that 40K is at it's best when it's a beer and pretzels game. The most fun I ever have is when I am just playing to have fun. It doesn't hurt if I am a bit buzzed. When I start going competitive it almost always ruins the game for me. I always feel caught between hating that my army sucks and not wanting to netlist with the new hotness. It's a constant pull. I have enough armies (over 100,000 points of 40K) to always play something that is on the bleeding edge, but I hate playing the meta chasers. I suspect that they feel the same way I do when chasing the meta and focus becomes on only playing the very best. This leads to hyper focus on winning and then if I lose a game I feel like the event is over for me. I've seen many times where someone spends weeks getting ready for a tournament and then drops on day 1 after their first loss.

OK, so our index sucks. Adjust your expectations. Let's find the best units we have and give it a go. The look on the face when you beat a meta chaser with a "bad army" is very satisfying.

And if you are new to the hive, disappointment is what fuels our souls. Besides the codex from last year, nearly every release of 'nids have been met with intense disappointment. Expect dissapointment as a 'nid player so you can be pleasantly surprised with mediocrity.

Think of it this way. GW incompetence are ruining your fun however you want to play. If GW did a minimum professional job on the rules everyone could play the game for fun or competition, without the feeling your piss being boiled every day. It's not like some of the stupidity GW put on paper was difficult to spot. I would believe anyone that said, GW deliberately make it a performance target to eliminate development and testing of game rules.

Quote from the usually diplomatic YouTuber Tactical Tortoise, "I would prefer that their games be playable upon release." and "They didn't play test their rules, yeah, that is probably true."
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO2JaOzFaO4
at 1h47min

[gauntlet]

If I had about 20 units in my list
5 x min Termagants,
2 x min hormagants,
3 x min warriors shooty
2 x min warriors melee
1 x min zoanthropes
3 x min rippers
3 x max genestealers
2 x broodlord + linchpin
1 x deathleaper

that's 1930 points
would your current Tyrannid list struggle with winning the game against me, and why?