Termagants!

[gman25639]

I have realized something.

This may be the best iteration of the humble Termagant ever. At 6 points a model (60 for 10 or 120 for 20), and the new weapon profiles, these guys are incredibly flexible and affordable.

All of their weapon options seem good, you just have to know when to use them. To put it in layman's terms, Fleshborers are for getting to and holding objectives, Spinefists are for fighting other hordes and Devourers are for killing elite infantry like Marines.

To elaborate:

Fleshborer: Assault Range18" A1 BS4+ S5 AP0 D1
These are a decent all-round weapon and having that Assault keyword means you can Advance towards objectives early without sacrificing a turn of shooting, if you're using Fleshborers, run them up the field onto objectives and hold.

Spinefists: Assault, Pistol, Twin Linked Range12" A2 BS4+ S3 AP0 D1
Lower strength, more shots, reroll wounds, can be fired while in melee range. These are best against Orks, Demons, Imp Guard, other Tyranids. Spinefist Gaunts are your blockers, throw them directly at the enemy, get as close as you can and chip away at them with massed weaker attacks.

Devourers: Range18" A2 BS4+ S4 AP0 D1

These are your elite killers, even though it has 1 less strength than the Fleshborer it has twice the shots. Both hit on 4's but vs a T4 Marine, you will, on average, force more saves and therefore FAILED saves, with 40 S4 shots than 20 S5. Here's the math:
4+ means a 50/50 chance of hitting.
20 shots, 10 hit, wound on 3+ so 7 wound, 3+ only fails 1/3 of the time so 2 failed saves.
40 shots, 20 hit, wound on 4+ so 10 wound, again 1/3 fail so 3 failed saves.
But without the Assault keyword their gap-closing ability is limited, so it's best to either stick a couple blobs of these guys in Strategic Reserves and walk them onto a board edge or put them in a Tyrannocyte.

Conclusion: Termagants have lots of options that are all good depending on what you want to do with them and what opponent you are facing.

[Iryan]

If we get a strat or other synergy effect that lets us bestow Devastating Wounds to an infantry unit, Spinefist termagants will become delightfully disgusting with that due to weight of fire and twin-linked.

(such a buff would also make shock hiveguard ridiculously good at melting tanks, but then they would still be useless against other monster-users so )

[acehilator]

Not enough buffs for Termagants, and the reduced max. unit size also kills them. Maybe with another detachment in the Codex, but I highly doubt it.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I'm going to try out a tervigon/termagant list at some point. I think that lethal hits will be very helpful against anything that's not 2+ armor saves. I was thinking of using sustained hits or precision depending upon the opponent.

[Iryan]

I think tervigons can only work in small games, up to maybe 1000p. If you go to full-sized games, then it becomes too easy for your opponent to fully delete termagant units one at a time, and if all your termagant units are either full or dead, the spawning cannot generate value.

This has been a design issue with the girl ever since she lost the ability to just spawn a new unit, unfortunately. Still, for small games and/or casual games, go ham!

[swarm492]

Potential for sustained hits, lethal hits, cover, -1 to hit and fnp and/or an invul isn't enough?

[autoxidation]

In terms of killing potential, Spinefists are our most lethal weapon on Termagants, because 2 shots at a lower strength with rerolls is always better than 1 shot at a slightly higher strength and no rerolls. This only gets compounded with taking Lethal Hits or Sustained Hits.



Where Fleshborers excel in that they are the only 18" ranged option with Assault (advance + shoot).

[parzaius]

Yeah, Fleshborers needed that -1 AP to be valid options. And Devourers needed 3x shots. And both got screwed from the 10-30 going to 10-20, to say nothing of losing all the shooting-buff nid stratagems.

Termagants aren't especially valuable. They're cheaper now, but if you're thinking they're going to do anything more than plink, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

[infornography]

Yeah, I'm going to say that we are dealing trivial amounts of damage regardless of the gun we pick on these guys. Seriously, damage is not their role. And I suspect for 1 extra point, we will get substantially more damage out of horms than spinefist terms in a close quarters brawl.

Further I think Gargs are pretty attractive with their enormous move. Again, not going to kill very much, but they can close distance fast and yoink an objective but at 2 more ppm I wouldn't exclusively rely on them for that job.

[yoritomo]

I think devourers and spinefists are interchangeable damage wise. Spinefists having the edge on anything T5 or T8+. I’d rather just have the extra range to be honest.

The bottom line is that all three options are about on par with each other.

[gman25639]

Jun 21, 2023 20:59:51 GMT acehilator said:

Not enough buffs for Termagants, and the reduced max. unit size also kills them. Maybe with another detachment in the Codex, but I highly doubt it.

With both the reduced cost and no longer needing to adhere to the old force org chart, I don't think going from 30 to 20 is a nerf at all. Since they're a battle line unit you can take up to 6 squads. That's 120 Gaunts. I'd say that 6 squads of 20 is harder to kill than 4 squads of 30 since you have to focus them down 1 unit at a time. Before if you took 6 squads of them, it was more expensive and if you did that you couldn't take any other Troops units. Now you can take 6 and have both space for other hordes AND they're more spread out and harder to target AND they're cheaper.

[gman25639]

Jun 21, 2023 21:41:44 GMT Iryan said:

I think tervigons can only work in small games, up to maybe 1000p. If you go to full-sized games, then it becomes too easy for your opponent to fully delete termagant units one at a time, and if all your termagant units are either full or dead, the spawning cannot generate value.

This has been a design issue with the girl ever since she lost the ability to just spawn a new unit, unfortunately. Still, for small games and/or casual games, go ham!

Concerning Tervigons, I think running a single one alongside 2 full Devourer Gaunt squads walking onto a board edge from Strategic Reserves could potentially work. Lethal Hits plus regenerating lost Terms with both the Tervigon itself and the Endless Multitude stratagem.

[trashcan01]

Jun 21, 2023 20:59:51 GMT acehilator said:

Not enough buffs for Termagants, and the reduced max. unit size also kills them. Maybe with another detachment in the Codex, but I highly doubt it.

With the Blast rules adding 1 attack per 5 models, you really, REALLY don't want a unit of 30.

[gman25639]

Ok I ran some more numbers.

Assuming both are within range, Spinefists will deal 1 more unsaved wound on average to a squad of T4 3+ Marines than Devourers.

Now if you introduce a Tervigon to grant Lethal Hits to your Termagants, this actually flips and the Devourers will inflict 1 more unsaved wound on average than the Spinefists.

Now obviously I rounded the numbers because dice don't do decimals. Both of these were calculated for a single squad of 20 Termagants. Assuming you take 2 or more blobs those extra wounds are gonna stack up.

Also one other thing to consider is range. Devourers outrange Spinefists by 6". I think my original statement about every weapon being good in the right context still stands.

[acehilator]

You are still considering damage. Doesn't matter, it's not enough. Tervigon is also a giant waste of points. The synergy is not even halfway enough to make it viable.