Battle shocked and vexila

[hivefleetkerrigan]

If you're battle shocked, your OV drops to 0. How does that work with the custodes vexila that gives models in the unit +1 OC?

[dkng]

0 + 1 = 1

[mattblowers]

Battle shock is pretty pointless. Everyone has the generic stratagem to ignore it. Many armies have mechanics to ignore it. And some armies actually trigger benefits from battle shock. For 5 editions GW has been trying to make leadership matter, and it just doesn't. Good thing they took their playtesting in house for QC. I don't know who is on that team, but they need to be fired.

[dkng]

Jun 20, 2023 11:58:43 GMT mattblowers said:

Battle shock is pretty pointless. Everyone has the generic stratagem to ignore it. Many armies have mechanics to ignore it. And some armies actually trigger benefits from battle shock. For 5 editions GW has been trying to make leadership matter, and it just doesn't. Good thing they took their playtesting in house for QC. I don't know who is on that team, but they need to be fired.

Unless it was already FAQed SitW can’t be remedied with Insane Bravery.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

It's funny to me that 4/5 reviews say "battle shock doesn't impact games" and then the 1/5 say "it actually hugely swing my game". I think it will be very swingy and make a huge difference sometimes but have no impact most of the time.

[N.I.B.]

Yeah I think it's a trap building with battleshocking the enemy as a pivotal strategy, regardless of the GW wants you to believe. Armies like S-tier Custodes are basically immune to it and many other common factions can seemingly mitigate it severly.

[nidsallday]

Jun 20, 2023 12:54:32 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

It's funny to me that 4/5 reviews say "battle shock doesn't impact games" and then the 1/5 say "it actually hugely swing my game". I think it will be very swingy and make a huge difference sometimes but have no impact most of the time.

 i guess the 1/5 are just the lucky games where exactly the right unit got battelshocked to take over the objective / deny one objective. for most armies it tends to be worse then a 50/50 chance, neurotyrant it gets a liiiiittle bit better.

all in all the game seems to be a lot more swingy. a lot of D3+3 / D3+6 got changed to D6 / D6+3. Sitw is no exception to this swingyness i guess.

[nidsallday]

Jun 20, 2023 11:55:06 GMT dkng said:

0 + 1 = 1

wait is this really how it works? is this because "set effects take effect first and then add/substract effects are counted"? or is it anything else? sorry if the answer might seem obvious, didnt check sitw/vexila wording in detail.

i read it as vexila sets the OC characteristic to +1 (changes characteristic) at the moment vexila equipment is chosen and then when battle-shock happens it changes it to 0. but yeah, as i said in another post, im only playing for a few months, might be super obvious that it is working as you stated above to everyone with more experience

[hivefleetkerrigan]

1. Agreed on games swingyness. In goonhammers review one person detailed how battle shock prevented one or more units from interrupting which swung the game. I'm interested to see if battle shock or the lack of strats is the item that causes more issues.

2. This is why I asked the question! The order of operations is what I'm not sure of.

[Sensei]

I agree it's a little ambiguous, but I read it as:
Model OC + Vexila, then apply modifiers from things like battleshock.

That would make it 2 + 1 but then battleshock reduces the total to 0.

The models in the Custodes unit have an OC of 2. If there is a Vexila, the equipment adds 1 to each model for a total of 3. If they become battleshocked, their OC value is reduced to 0. There's nothing to indicate the Custodes player gets to add the Vexila modifier after battleshock is applied.

Reason being is that Dark Angels faction ability is "While an Adeptus Astartes unit from your army is Battle-shocked, change the Objective Control characteristic of models in that unit to 1, instead of 0". That is strong in and of itself, but the Deathwing Command Squad has "While this unit contains an Ancient, add 1 to the Objective Control characteristic of its models".

The first ability clearly specifies it is added after battleshock is applied. The other doesn't. If it was allowed to be added after, a battle shocked command squad would have an OC value of 2 per model. The wording of Vexila is similar to the rules for the Ancient, and does not specify that it is applied after battleshock.

[mattblowers]

Jun 20, 2023 18:36:44 GMT Sensei said:

The first ability clearly specifies it is added after battleshock is applied. The other doesn't. If it was allowed to be added after, a battle shocked command squad would have an OC value of 2 per model. The wording of Vexila is similar to the rules for the Ancient, and does not specify that it is applied after battleshock.

If you expect consistency of application of wording of the rules from GW then I am afraid you are likely to be profoundly disappointed in the very near future.

[Sensei]

Fair point, lol.

I'd still argue that the equipment or ability takes effect at the time of the unit being selected. Battle shock is a modifier that is applied later.

Custodes have OC of 2. Custodes with vexila have OC of 3. Those values are true at the beginning of the game.

When battle shock is applied, it states the OC value is 0, not reduce to 0 and then add modifiers. It just takes whatever the current value is, whether that is just the datasheet or datasheet plus equipment and abilities, and sets it to 0.

[No One]

Rules Commentary said:

MODIFIERS
Modifiers are rules that change a numerical value from one value to
another. This can include the result of a dice roll, the characteristics
of a model, and more. This section details how to apply modifiers in
your games. In all cases:
1. All modifiers are cumulative.
2. If a rule instructs you to change or replace one characteristic with
a specified value, change the relevant characteristic to the new
value before applying any modifiers that apply from other rules (if
any) to the new value.
3. You must then apply division modifiers before applying
multiplication modifiers, before applying addition and then
subtraction modifiers.
4. Round any fractions up after applying all modifiers.
Example 1: A model is under the effects of two abilities,
one instructing the controlling player to ‘double the Attacks
characteristic of its melee weapons’ and the other saying ‘add 1 to
the Attacks characteristic of its melee weapons.’ These two modifiers
(x2 and +1) are cumulative and applied concurrently. If that model
had a melee weapon with an unmodified Attacks characteristic of 3,
then after the modifiers are applied, this would become 7 (3x2=6,
then 6+1=7).
Example 2a: An Ancient is leading a unit of Intercessors (Objective
Control = 2). The unit is within Engagement Range of a unit of
Rippers whose Chitinous Horrors ability states ‘While an enemy unit
is within Engagement Range of this unit, halve the Objective Control
characteristic of models in that enemy unit’. The Ancient has the
Astartes Banner ability, which states ‘While this model is leading
a unit, add 1 to the Objective Control characteristic of models in
that unit’. Division modifiers are applied before addition modifiers,
meaning the final modified OC of each Intercessor model in that unit
is 2 (2/2=1, then 1+1=2).
Example 2b: The same Intercessor unit from Example 2a becomes
Battle-shocked, changing the OC characteristic of its models
to 0. This happens before the Chitinous Horrors and Astartes
Banner modifiers are applied, meaning the final, modified OC
of each Intercessor model in that unit is 1 (2 --> 0, then 0/2 = 0,
then 0+1=1).

It's pretty clear, rules commentary's almost required reading with how much they've chucked in there...

[nidsallday]

Jun 21, 2023 2:51:48 GMT No One said:

Rules Commentary said:

MODIFIERS
Modifiers are rules that change a numerical value from one value to
another. This can include the result of a dice roll, the characteristics
of a model, and more. This section details how to apply modifiers in
your games. In all cases:
1. All modifiers are cumulative.
2. If a rule instructs you to change or replace one characteristic with
a specified value, change the relevant characteristic to the new
value before applying any modifiers that apply from other rules (if
any) to the new value.
3. You must then apply division modifiers before applying
multiplication modifiers, before applying addition and then
subtraction modifiers.
4. Round any fractions up after applying all modifiers.
Example 1: A model is under the effects of two abilities,
one instructing the controlling player to ‘double the Attacks
characteristic of its melee weapons’ and the other saying ‘add 1 to
the Attacks characteristic of its melee weapons.’ These two modifiers
(x2 and +1) are cumulative and applied concurrently. If that model
had a melee weapon with an unmodified Attacks characteristic of 3,
then after the modifiers are applied, this would become 7 (3x2=6,
then 6+1=7).
Example 2a: An Ancient is leading a unit of Intercessors (Objective
Control = 2). The unit is within Engagement Range of a unit of
Rippers whose Chitinous Horrors ability states ‘While an enemy unit
is within Engagement Range of this unit, halve the Objective Control
characteristic of models in that enemy unit’. The Ancient has the
Astartes Banner ability, which states ‘While this model is leading
a unit, add 1 to the Objective Control characteristic of models in
that unit’. Division modifiers are applied before addition modifiers,
meaning the final modified OC of each Intercessor model in that unit
is 2 (2/2=1, then 1+1=2).
Example 2b: The same Intercessor unit from Example 2a becomes
Battle-shocked, changing the OC characteristic of its models
to 0. This happens before the Chitinous Horrors and Astartes
Banner modifiers are applied, meaning the final, modified OC
of each Intercessor model in that unit is 1 (2 --> 0, then 0/2 = 0,
then 0+1=1).

It's pretty clear, rules commentary's almost required reading with how much they've chucked in there...

ok, yeah, this makes it pretty clear then, an sitw even less powerfull as it cant even give you a chance to deny the enemy an objective you are not contesting if they have something like vexila equiped. bummer. but because of the swingy nature of sitw relying on such a circumstace was never a go to plan anyway i guess.

[infornography]

I had hopes that Battleshock would be important and it would matter. Sadly it seems to just make Dark Angels better and otherwise mostly do nothing. Makes me sad that both of our core faction mechanics are directly related to Battle Shock and ultimately neither will truly be important most of the time.