Bug Soup

[hivefleetwormwood]

If I run a detachment of bugs and one of cult, what do I lose?


Synaptic Imperatives. Definitely.
Crossfire. Definitely.

Faction specific secondaries?

Hive Fleet Adaptation & Cult abilites?

Anything else?

[srblack1167]

Just went through the WHPedia website for Tyranids...

...
HIVE FLEETS

If your army is Battle-forged, <HIVE FLEET> units in HIVE TENDRIL Detachments gain access to the following hive fleet rules, provided every <HIVE FLEET> unit in your army is from the same hive fleet. If every <HIVE FLEET> unit in a HIVE TENDRIL Detachment is from the same hive fleet, that Detachment is referred to as a Hive Fleet Detachment.
...
If you have units that are not <HIVE FLEET>, it does not exempt you from <HIVE FLEET> benefits for your HIVE TENDRIL Detachments.



The only things that require all units in your ARMY to be the same are Synaptic Imperatives and Secondary Objectives.

[piersonsmuppet]

You lose:

Imperatives
Crossfire
Faction Secondaries

Some make the case that adaptions are lost. There are two rules sections for Hive fleet adaptions, and both have different requirements for being able to use them (and they conflict). <Keyword> traits are detachment abilities, so using the adaption rule under Hive Fleet is correct.

Edit: The rule under Hive fleet only applies if battle-forged. A non-battle-forged army would lose adaptations when souping with GSC.

[No One]

piersonsmuppet said:

<Keyword> traits are detachment abilities, so using the adaption rule under Hive Fleet is correct.

A: They're whatever they say they are
B: Det abilities are totally able to have an additional 'if all models in your army are X' clause
C: The rules for them under detachment rules are:

Hive Fleet Adaptations
If every unit from your army (excluding HIVE TENDRIL LIVING ARTILLERY and UNALIGNED units) is from the same hive fleet, all HIVE TENDRIL units with this ability, and all the models in them, gain a Hive Fleet Adaptation. The Hive Fleet Adaptation gained depends upon which hive fleet they are from.

If your hive fleet does not have an associated Hive Fleet Adaptation, you must instead create a new Hive Fleet Adaptation for them, as described in Infinite Biomorphologies section. This allows you to customise the rules for your hive fleet to best represent their fighting style. In either case, write down all of your Detachments’ Hive Fleet Adaptations on your army roster.

Example: A BEHEMOTH unit with the Hive Fleet Adaptations ability gains the Hyper-aggression adaptation.

Hyper-adaptations
Each Hive Fleet Adaptation also has an Adaptive element to it, which can be swapped out for another rule at the start of the battle, after determining who has the first turn. There are multiple alternative rules that this Adaptive element can be swapped out for, and each hive fleet’s Hyper-adaptations rule will specify which ones are available to you.

Example: John’s army contains only BEHEMOTH units, which have the Hyper-aggression adaptation. At the start of the battle, he decides to use the Hyper-adaptations rule to change the Adaptive element of his models’ adaptation. The Hyper-adaptations rule for HIVE FLEET BEHEMOTH states that he can select either a Hunt or Lurk Biomorphology to replace it with. He selects Unfeeling Resilience from the Lurk Biomorphologies and so, for that battle, his BEHEMOTH units’ adaptation becomes:

Each time a unit with this adaptation fights, if it made a charge move, was charged, or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, then until that fight is resolved, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of models in that unit.
Models with this adaptation whose characteristics can change as they suffer damage are considered to have double the number of wounds remaining for the purposes of determining what those characteristics are.

Just all the important bits.

Also note that:

HIVE FLEET ADAPTATIONS
All <HIVE FLEET> units with this ability gain a Hive Fleet Adaptation. The adaptation gained depends on which hive fleet they are from, as shown below.

Does not care about having the ability, or in fact anything at all. If you want to argue that applies to give the benefit with Cult, then it applies to give the benefit in a sup-heavy aux. Which...no.

[piersonsmuppet]

Hive Fleet rules:

If your army is Battle-forged, <HIVE FLEET> units in HIVE TENDRIL Detachments gain access to the following hive fleet rules, provided every <HIVE FLEET> unit in your army is from the same hive fleet. If every <HIVE FLEET> unit in a HIVE TENDRIL Detachment is from the same hive fleet, that Detachment is referred to as a Hive Fleet Detachment.

I would say this supersedes the other rule since it is more specific (only battle-forged armies). If not, that makes Tyranids the only 9E faction that loses the army trait when souping as I don't think any other 9E books traits are "every unit in the army".

I'm not sure what your last statement is suggesting; Cult Creeds are like every other 9E faction's <keyword> detachment traits (still gained in soup) and Super Heavy Aux detachments specifically say no traits.

[No One]

piersonsmuppet said:

If not, that makes Tyranids the only 9E faction that loses the army trait when souping as I don't think any other 9E books traits are "every unit in the army".

Yep. This does...not detract from my point at all, since every other 9e faction has only subfaction has to be the same. e.g. In the same 'detachment rules' section where it goes over 'you get ability for being in a det, ability gives you trait':

Chapter Tactics
All ADEPTUS ASTARTES units (other than SERVITOR and BEAST units) with this ability, and all the models in them, gain a Chapter Tactic so long as every unit in their Detachment is from the same Chapter. The tactic gained depends upon which Chapter they are from, as shown on the following pages.

Legion Traits
All TRAITORIS ASTARTES units (excluding CULTISTS and AGENT OF CHAOS units, and units described in the Slaves to Darkness rule - see below) with this ability, and all the models in them, gain a Legion Trait provided every <LEGION> unit from your army (excluding AGENT OF CHAOS and UNALIGNED units) is from the same Legion.

We have a different wording: it's almost like that might mean we're supposed to work differently...

I'm not sure what your last statement is suggesting; Cult Creeds are like every other 9E faction's <keyword> detachment traits (still gained in soup) and Super Heavy Aux detachments specifically say no traits.

I'm talking about nids getting it with Cult, nothing to do with Cult directly. And no, aux lose Detachment abilities (and specifically and only det abilities: you'd still get e.g. power in an aux). Compare the first bit I posted (which boils down to 'if all army X and if ability, gain adaptation') and the second (which boils down to 'gain adaptation').

[piersonsmuppet]

Still doesn't address that the Hive Fleet rule gives Battle-Forged armies an alternate requirement for gaining Hive Fleet adaptations. Wouldn't Specific > General apply as the rules conflict?

Edit: Nvm I see where I goofed, was blending Hive Fleet and the Hive Fleet Hive Adaptation rule together. So Nids/GSC soup would lose:

Imperatives
Adatations
Crossfire
Faction Secondaries

Edit2: This is also one great example on how poorly written the Nid codex is (not the losing traits, just that you have to link sections together).

[infornography]

Long story short, if you are at all concerned about efficacy, you lose too much to make it worth it. Soup is NOT a recommended strategy. Not only is it confusing and likely to cause spirited debates with the TO or your opponent, but even optimistic assessments have you losing a lot of our capabilities.