Hive Nexus

[No One]

bigbadbalou said:

(Sorry in advance, i'm not too good with quoting others in the forum, but I'll try to make it as clear as possible)

[quote author="@author"]Text here. Note that the 'author' is their tag, not display name (e.g. mine is noone, not No One. Some are [i]very[/i] different),
or can be dropped entirely to not ping (like below quote)[/quote]
You can do it with the quote button, but that's absolute pain if you want to do anything other than quote an entire post.

Sure, the only way I know for a synapse unit to get a synaptic imperative ability is if your WL is still alive. But Hive nexus is not giving the Synpatic Imperative ability to anyone... It just make so that a core model is benefiting from an inactive imperative from one of your synapse model as if it was active for that model. The Core model and the synapse model are not gaining the ability from the psychic power. Does something in the rules, anywhere, says that a model can't benefit from an imperative anytime? Because the WL restriction does not. The only thing having a dead WL does, is that all the synpase models in your army will not have the Synpatic imperative ability/aura to pass it around. I don't see where it says a unit can't benefit from an imperative if it's affected by one by another way than the ability's aura (as with Hive nexus for exemple).

So, the way you benefit from an imperative normally is, that it grants the "aura" to a Synapse model, the Synapse model is then within 6", and you get benefit. That's how it being active for your army helps, and getting that "aura" requires your WL to be alive. While I agree that the power could in theory just go 'it benefits from a different imperative', that's not what it says.

The power says to do it "as if it was active for your army" and "as if they were within 6" of one another." i.e. It's going through the normal steps of
1. 'active for army',
2. 'gain ability',
3. 'be within 6"',
4. 'get effect'.
The problem being that step 2 requires the WL to be alive. Otherwise step 1 does nothing and step 3 doesn't matter, you don't get step 4. [/quote]

[kinginyellow]

The way people are discussing this, if I cast hive nexus on a core nexus unit, wouldn't following the normal sequence mean that the unit now broadcasts the imperative 6" as that is the normal process of a synapse unit gaining the benefit of the imperative?

[piersonsmuppet]

I think the strongest point of contention is if "treating as if active for the army" is the same as "active for the army". The only reason I don't think they are:

SYNAPSE units from your army have a Synaptic Imperative ability depending on which one is currently active for your army

that unit benefits from that SYNAPSE model’s Synaptic Imperative ability as if it was active for your army (in addition to the one that is currently active for your army)

I would say there is grounds for saying that only one Imperative is ever active for the army that cares for if the WL is around. So, it depends on any precedent that GW has with "treated as" rules which conflict with limitations (I have no idea here).

Thematically, losing the top bug makes sense to kill an army wide effect. Minor leaders losing an ability intrinsic to themselves doesn't make sense, and this is where I would expect TO's to make a RAI call in favor of Hive Nexus still working.

Just to be clear; I do admit RAW favors nuking Hive Nexus slightly, but I don't think it is explicit either way.

[No One]

kinginyellow said:

The way people are discussing this, if I cast hive nexus on a core nexus unit, wouldn't following the normal sequence mean that the unit now broadcasts the imperative 6" as that is the normal process of a synapse unit gaining the benefit of the imperative?

Hmm...I don't think that's a required extension.

Blessing: Hive Nexus has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select one friendly LEVIATHAN CORE unit within Synaptic Link range of this PSYKER and select one Synaptic Imperative ability of a friendly LEVIATHAN SYNAPSE model that is also within Synaptic Link range of this PSYKER. Until the start of your next turn, that unit benefits from that SYNAPSE model’s Synaptic Imperative ability as if it was active for your army (in addition to the one that is currently active for your army) and as if they were within 6" of one another.

The sequence is:
- Pick Core unit within link range (unit A)
- Pick Synaptic imperative ability of friendly synapse within link range (unit B)
Unit A then benefits from unit B's imperative ability as if it were active for your army and as if they were within 6" of each other. So as far as unit A is concerned, unit B has the "aura" and they're close enough to benefit. As far as everyone else is concerned, that isn't the case.

piersonsmuppet said:

So, it depends on any precedent that GW has with "treated as" rules which conflict with limitations (I have no idea here).

Nothing that's been FAQed AFAIK, but I don't see any need to FAQ that e.g. you don't get doctrines for mixed armies even if you use adaptive strategy.

If every unit from your army has the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (excluding AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM and UNALIGNED units), this unit gains a bonus (see below) depending on which combat doctrine is active for your army, as follows:

Adaptive Strategy 2 CP
Use this Stratagem in your Command phase, if a <CHAPTER> WARLORD from your army is on the battlefield and a combat doctrine is active for your army. Select one <CHAPTER> CORE unit from your army that is on the battlefield. Until the start of your next Command phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack, the Devastator Doctrine, Tactical Doctrine and Assault Doctrine are considered to be active for that attack.

Or that Skitarii can benefit (outside of Mars) from a Canticle using data-blessed auto sermon:

DATA-BLESSED AUTOSERMON 2CP
Use this Stratagem in your Command phase. Select one ADEPTUS MECHANICUS unit from your army within 6" of a friendly TECH-PRIEST model and select one Canticle that has not yet been active for your army. Until the start of your next Command phase, that unit counts that Canticle as being active for your army in addition to the currently active one.

(Note that Skitarii do not have the ability)

The only difference is that hive nexus specifically calls out that it benefits: which you could take as trumping the "as if it was active for your army" bit i.e. you benefit even though that's not how it being active for your army works. Or as I read it, you just get the benefit i.e. it doesn't actually turn on the "aura", you just get the benefit of the "aura" as if you were within 6". But you still need to be in a position where you could benefit if that imperative was active for your army (i.e. if your WL was on the table, that imperative was active for your army, and you're within 6" of Synapse, you'd get X. Hive Nexus takes care of the 2nd and the 3rd, leaving only the 1st).

[piersonsmuppet]

Both of those examples have a clear restriction; Adaptive needing a doctrine active in the stratagem wording (impossible in a mixed detachment), and Autosermon being keyword locked (impossible for skitarii outside Mars). Both are explicit in that they can’t work.

The Synaptic Imperative errata is unclear whether the WL location only affects the imperative chosen at the start of the battle-round (the one which is currently active) or all active Imperatives.

Considering the WL gives each Synapse unit the currently active Imperative, I don’t think it affects a singular Synapse creature having it’s Imperative active from another source.

[bigbadbalou]

(Trying to quote correctly... lol)

Considering the WL gives each Synapse unit the currently active Imperative, I don’t think it affects a singular Synapse creature having it’s Imperative active from another source.

That's part of the point that makes me think it would work. We use a shortcut to say "no WL on the battlefield, no Imperative can be used". But that's not the restriction or the rule of the WL concerning the Imperative.

(second try...)

SYNAPTIC IMPERATIVE ABILITIES

If every unit from your army has the HIVE TENDRIL keyword (excluding UNALIGNED units) and each of those units (excluding LIVING ARTILLERY units) is from the same hive fleet, then while your WARLORD is on the battlefield, SYNAPSE units from your army have a Synaptic Imperative ability depending on which one is currently active for your army.

So in my mind, the steps would be more something like:
1. Start of the round, choose an imperative (which becomes your current active imperative)
2. Is your WL on the battlefield?
     Yes - All synapse gain the ability of the current active imperative (so the 6'' aura)
     No - Synapses do not gain the ability of the current active imperative

From that point on, the game play as usual. Meaning that the aura affect anybody within its range that is a valid target, and your synpase model have (or don't have) the imperative ability. And there is nowhere written that unit X cannot benefit from the aura or an imperative. The restriction is purely based on the way to know if all synapse gets the ability from the normal Synaptic Imperative abilities rule. The Synaptic imperative abilities rule does not prohibit the synapse from using the ability, on the contrary, it allows them to have it IF the WL is on the Board.

Now, Hive Nexus does not grant the ability to a synapse unit (or else, said synapse would grant the imperative all around at 6'', and that is defenitely wrong). Since there is no restriction on units to use the benefit of an aura or an imperative, Hive nexus should work. Even considering it says "as if active", the unit receiving the imperative bonus can still benefit from it because there is no restriction about it not being able to do it. It just gets it from elsewhere than via a synapse unit with the ability.

Of course, no WL means no ability to all synapse by default each turn. But no where does it prevent unit X from benefiting from an imperative if you can get the bonus from another source than the ability granted to each synapse unit each turn via the WL.

[dkng]

WTC FAQ says Hive Nexus can only be used while Warlord is on the battlefiled:

worldteamchampionship.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/WTC_2022_FAQ_1.1.pdf

[bigbadbalou]

So yeah, of course. In every cases, when you have a gray zone in a rule, always check with your TO for a tournament before getting into a situation where the rule arise. It's always better to do and will avoid many debate that could slow or ruin your game.

But I still think in normal games, as the rule is written currently, you should be able to use Hive Nexus when the warlord is not on the battlefield. WTC just decided to blanket it to make it more simple for their tournament, and it's ok. As long as the ruling is known before the tournament and all players are on the same page.

[piersonsmuppet]

Aug 17, 2022 9:11:48 GMT dkng said:

WTC FAQ says Hive Nexus can only be used while Warlord is on the battlefiled:

worldteamchampionship.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/WTC_2022_FAQ_1.1.pdf

WTC rulings are often more about layering additional balance as they want instead of clarification. Just look at the Maleceptor ruling, Psychic Overload can’t affect units which can’t be affected by psychic powers (not a psychic power). There is also the Reaper ruling which says the generated MWs can be ignored (the MWs are allocated with the attack).

[dkng]

True ofcourse. This wasn't meant to be a point in discussion. Btw I hate this Reaper MW ruling, although it does make some sense from a certain point of view. The Mal rules are retarded though. Fluffy but retarded.

[piersonsmuppet]

Anything posted is fair game for discussion! I was just trying to illustrate that cherry picking rulings from large events isn’t necessarily the best way. I only follow a big event’s FAQ if I’m (1) playing in it or (2) agree with the intent behind most/all the rulings.

Personally, I’d like to see what FLG says about Hive Nexus’ need for the WL.