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Post by zimko on Oct 11, 2022 2:24:03 GMT
The broodlord's imperative may actually come in handy here to give the Tfexes 1+ saves. Broodlord imperative is Infantry only unfortunately. Well that sucks.
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Post by hiveoverall on Oct 12, 2022 12:12:31 GMT
My next tournament is a Major (Flames of Autumn 40k Major @ Tables and Towers) on Nov 5th. They are using a custom terrain layout. Every mission has a different terrain layout and it's not player placed. In general, if the mission is 'hold 1/ hold 2' then each side has 1 big ruin that is covering a 'home' objective and the rest of the objectives can not be held from inside a ruin. If the mission is 'hold 2/hold 3' then 2 objectives can be held from a ruin and the rest are exposed. There's plenty of LOS blocking terrain but it's just not going to be on objectives. It'll be between or on either side of them. This means that any unit that wants to hold a midfield objective needs to be durable enough to survive in order to score it. So with that in mind... Kraken Battalion HQ - Broodlord: Nueroparasite - Nuerothrope: Resonance Barb, Catalyst, Onslaught, Paroxysm - Flyrant: Reaper, Glands, Horror, PScream, Adaptive Bio Troops - 10 Hormagaunts - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AG, Flesh Hooks - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AG, Flesh Hooks Elites - 3 Tyrant Guard: LashSword - 3 Zoanthropes: Nueroparasite - 4 Venomthropes - 4 Venomthropes Heavy - Tyrannofex: Rupture, Voracious Ammunition - Tyrannofex: Rupture - Tyrannofex: Rupture 2000 pts, 3 CP I'm basically abandoning Spore Nodes as an option with this list and going all in on wiping my opponent on primary. The goal here being having so much lethal force that I will wipe my opponent out and score Banners later. The main difference between this list and the last is another unit of 5 Warriors with Flesh Hooks. And if you're thinking 'why flesh hooks and not a venom cannon?', it's because the large ruin that is protecting our home objective is always a multi-story ruin with closed windows. This means I can deploy my Warriors on the second floor and not lose any movement jumping down. This lets the rest of my forces cram into the bottom floor. Additionally, Warriors do their real damage in melee and last RTT I had enough CP to give them +1 to hit multiple times. It was nice. The broodlord's imperative may actually come in handy here to give the Tfexes 1+ saves. And since I'm going all offense, his melee will also come in handy. I'll need the Tfexes to move up and sit on a flanked objective in the open. Looking at the terrain layouts, most of the midfield objectives can be seen by the other midfield objectives, so pushing the Tfexes up and sitting on one of those objectives will give them optimal firing lanes. The command phase buff that the Broodlord gives is also good for Warriors and Venomthropes into Armor of Contempt and LoV. The terrain is really going to define this tournament. People are used to being able to set up their terrain in such a way that they can passively score 8 on primary every turn fairly easily. Now they're going to have to expose their units and play aggressively if they want to score. This list can punish anyone that thinks their units are durable enough to survive in the open. interesting, WTC rules I think prevent warriors from moving up ruin stories because the base is too big for the surface. Whish is bad design on their part, so kudos for your tournament not applying these silly wtc rules (all wtc rules dont suck, this one does though)
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Post by zimko on Oct 12, 2022 13:54:29 GMT
Ya I play primarily US East coast and we have never used WTC terrain or rules. That's an interesting one. I wonder what the logic behind that is and if it allows units with Fly to go up the ruins. This tournament is part of a new circuit called MATC (Mid Atlantic Tournament Circuit). They have their own FAQ. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1wSKGav2R33wzqJlMZzCboNcMw92wvoT7YGF74zPjE0g/htmlviewThe biggest thing here is they are allowing units to 'wobbly model' inside a wall to allow charges into ruins even if you're 1" off the wall. They basically are making a house rule to address the original issue that 2" engagement tried to fix. But at the same time the terrain layout they use favors shooting armies so it's a tradeoff, which is why I'm leaning heavily into just murdering my opponent instead of focusing on scoring. The exception being ensuring I have 3 psykers for Psychic Interigation.
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Post by zimko on Oct 17, 2022 16:12:08 GMT
Alright, I've convinced myself that a Broodlord just isn't that good, and instead am taking a Nuerothrope with Paroxysm and Psychic Scream to make him a decent source of mortals when he isnt casting actions. The 20 extra points will be spent on Toxin Sacs for the Flyrant and Adrenal Glands for the Tyrant Guard.
Another tweak I can do, since I can now have Paroxysm on the second Neurothrope, and the Onslaught Neuro will always have 3d6 cast available to him, I don't really need Resonance Barb anymore. Instead I can give Direct Guidance to that Neurothrope.
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Post by dkng on Oct 19, 2022 11:24:19 GMT
I've played a bit with double Neuro and it's good. Two more reliable casts, two more DtWs (going up to 6 in your case - it makes certain armies cry). DG can be awesome on Venoms and Warriors whenever you need something minced hard. Looking forward to hear how those changes worked for you.
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Post by alx51 on Oct 24, 2022 12:31:27 GMT
Hi heading to a 1750pts tournament, WTC terrain, I think I will try this version of the list, trying to maximize MW output via 2xzoan / 3x bio / 1 sporocyst. Any advice / comment ? Thanks !
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Command Points: 1 Total cost: 1750 pts, 94 PL Number of Units: 13 Assassination: 10 points Bring it Down: 7 points No Prisoners: 13 points Abhor the Witch: 13 points == Kraken (Adaptive) Battalion Detachment == 0 CP, 1655 pts, 88 PL Stratagems: - Hive Predator (-1 CP) - Rarefied Enhancements (-1 CP) - Rarefied Enhancements (-1 CP) - Hive Predator (-1 CP) No Force Org Slot: - Zoanthropes: Power: Neuroparasite, Power: Smite, Power: Synaptic Lure, 3xZoanthrope [150 pts, 7 PL] HQ1: Neurothrope: Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Power: Smite, Power: Synaptic Lure, Warlord Trait: Synaptic Tendrils [100 pts, 5 PL] HQ2: Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Massive Scything Talons, Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite, Power: Synaptic Lure, Relic: The Maw-claws of Thyrax, Warlord Trait: Heightened Senses [225 pts, 11 PL] HQ3: Winged Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands, Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, Power: Onslaught, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: Smite, Power: Synaptic Lure, Relic: The Reaper of Obilterax, Warlord [225 pts, 11 PL] TR1: Termagants: Fleshborer, 30xTermagant [210 pts, 12 PL] TR2: Termagants: Fleshborer, 10xTermagant [70 pts, 4 PL] TR3: Tyranid Warriors: 3xTyranid Warrior (Deathspitter, Dual Boneswords) [90 pts, 4 PL] TR4: Tyranid Warriors: 3xTyranid Warrior (Deathspitter, Dual Boneswords) [90 pts, 4 PL] EL1: Lictor [70 pts, 4 PL] EL2: Venomthropes: 4xVenomthrope [140 pts, 10 PL] EL3: Zoanthropes: Power: Neuroparasite, Power: Smite, Power: Synaptic Lure, 3xZoanthrope [150 pts, 7 PL] HS1: Biovores: 3xBiovore, Show Spore Mine Rules [135 pts, 9 PL] == Kraken (Adaptive) Fortification Network -1CP == 0 CP, 95 pts, 6 PL FT1: Sporocyst: 5xDeathspitter, Flensing Whips [95 pts, 6 PL]
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Post by zimko on Oct 24, 2022 13:46:45 GMT
That's a very different kind of list. Looks more like John Lennon's Spore mine list where you're aiming to hide Spore mines inside buildings and on objectives to force your opponent to limit their movement while you score points. I also never play on WTC terrain. Good luck! Let us know how it does.
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Post by alx51 on Oct 24, 2022 14:29:58 GMT
I basically trade the 2x tyrannofex of the initial list (for me exocrines worked better anyway) for more spore mines. Mines (and smites) are so good against necron cause they are slow and reanimation protocols don't work against them. Wtc terrain is very dense, quite easy to hide 6x mines waiting for someone to be brave enouch to come take some MWs !
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Post by zimko on Nov 7, 2022 16:03:14 GMT
I went to a 6 round 51 person GT this past weekend. Went 5 and 1 and placed 4th thanks to them using opponent's win/loss for tie breaker and my round 1 opponent dropping. My only loss was to Gonyo from Art of War playing Tau. We played on stream (youtube wargaming live, Flames of Autumn) and you'll see what the terrain was like. It was a shooting gallery, which is why I took 3 Rupture Fexes but I'm not outshooting 3 Riptides that can jump, shoot, jump.
Here's the list I took.
Kraken Battalion HQ - Nuerothrope: Catalyst, Onslaught, Direct Guidance - Nuerothrope: Paroxysm, Psychic Scream - Flyrant: Reaper, Glands, Horror, PScream, Adaptive Bio, TSacs Troops - 10 Hormagaunts - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AG, Flesh Hooks - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AG, Flesh Hooks Elites - 3 Tyrant Guard: LashSword, Glands - 3 Zoanthropes: Nueroparasite - 4 Venomthropes - 4 Venomthropes Heavy - Tyrannofex: Rupture, Voracious Ammunition - Tyrannofex: Rupture - Tyrannofex: Rupture 2000 pts, 3 CP
Summary of games:
Game 1 vs Blood Angels. This is the guy that dropped after going 0 and 3 on day 1. Not much he could do. 95 to 35 win
Game 2 vs Chaos Knights. The game had a rough start for my opponent when I killed a big knight with my Tfexes from behind obscuring. I had good rolls. They rolled poorly the rest of the game but that 1 round was good enough. 89 to 48 win
Game 3 vs Tau. Andrew Gonyo is a good player and the terrain heavily favored him. I could have had a chance if I won the rolloff to move my priority objective inside a ruin but I didn't. 48 to 91 loss. He went on to win the tournament.
Game 4 vs Astra Militarum Scions. An interesting list. 3 russes and a tank commander proved to be a good match for my tfexes. I only killed 2 of them before the fexes died. But the Venomthropes and Warriors carried the day in wiping out the troops and taking objectives. 91 to 54 win
Game 5 vs League of Votaan. A good player and new army. He had 1 fortress, 1 smaller vehicle, 10 zerkers, 8 terminator equivalent, 3 characters and a bunch of warriors. He got first turn but could only damage a tfex and kill my horms. In response I killed his smaller vehicle woth Reaper and put 10 wounds on the fortress with the fexes. I stayed out of range of the warriors. He committed to the middle hard on turn 2, killed 5 of my warriors and 1 tfex. But then I went all in, putting a bunch of mortals into the terminators and finishing them with 5 Warriors. I launched my venoms to a corner objective and tied up Warriors there. Charged and killed the fortress with the flyrant but failed to kill a character due to rolling a 1 on the charge mortals. My flyrant died on his turn but at thay point it was just Warriors and characters and venomthropes wounding on 2s against T5 turned out to be pretty good, so I tabled him. Still a decently close game. 87 to 69 win
Game 6 vs Daemons. Bloodthirster, Psychic Turkey, 20 hounds and a hound character, 15 flamers and a flamer character, a chariot dude and a vehicle with a big gun on it. First time playing the new demons. As with all the terrain setups, most of the objectives are in the open so I just stayed back scoring Banners and Interigate until he committed. His big demons are much slower than a flyrant tho, so I was able to kill the Turkey with a lot of mortals and the Flyrant and fly back thanks to having so many CPs to work with. My psychic rolling was hot so I maxed Interrogation. He attempted to stop 3 powers with 4+ and only stopped 1 Onslaught which I was fine with because it was only Venomthropes that I risked with it. The flamers though were scary. They crushed my warriors, but I managed to wipe one unit out with the warriors by using Paroxysm to stop overwatch. The other big unit died to my flyrant, and the smaller unit died to small arms fire. Still they were very good for their points. 88 to 71 win
So overall, I hated the terrain. They claimed it was decent for melee armies as well as shooting but given how big of a gap was between ruins I don't see how.
The Tfexes were ok and certainly put the hurt on Knights and Guard but were mostly useless in the Tau matchup cause I couldn't shoot his units that could jump back behind obscuring after shooting. Demons have good saves vs shooting so they didn't do much there except body blocked the bloodthirster from charging my Nuerothrope. They didn't matter against Blood Angels and all they did against Votaan was put 10 wounds on a fortress. The flyrant had to finish it off. They were feared for sure, and were resilient, but I think I will replace them for player placed and GW terrain.
Venomthropes still shine in almost every game. I took Cranial against Blood Angels, Votaan, AM and Deamons and maxed it in every game. I even managed to snag the bonus 3 for Warlord kill with venoms against Votaan and Demons (bloodthirster).
The second Nuerothrope was very nice for Psychic Interigation and having Paroxysm available without needing Resonance Barb. I took Interigation in every game and gained at least 3 cp in each game with it.
Direct Guidance and Tyrant buff, unsurprisingly, work great together on Warriors and Venoms.
So back to player placed terrain, I'm thinking I'll trade out the Tfexes for 2x5 raveners, 3 zoans and the parasite with Alien Cunning. This should give me more trading units, objective coverage, and a sneaky character to provide synapse and hold objectives.
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Post by zimko on Nov 15, 2022 4:45:18 GMT
I'm not sure when my next game will be but here's what I'm looking at trying. I have 10 3rd edition Raveners and a Parasite to paint for it.
Kraken Battalion HQ - Nuerothrope: Catalyst, Onslaught, Direct Guidance - Nuerothrope: Paroxysm, Psychic Scream - Flyrant: Reaper, Glands, Horror, PScream, Adaptive Bio, TSacs Troops - 10 Hormagaunts - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AG, Flesh Hooks, VC - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AG, Flesh Hooks, VC Elites - 3 Tyrant Guard: LashSword, Glands - 3 Zoanthropes: Nueroparasite - 3 Zoanthropes: Nueroparasite - 4 Venomthropes Fast Attack - 5 Raveners: DSpitters, Rending Claws - 5 Raveners: DSpitters, Rending Claws - Parasite of Mortrex: Alien Cunning Heavy - 3 Biovores 2000 pts, 2 CP
This is for player placed LVO style terrain. It's a bit more 'meta' than the Tfexes and I need to practice before LVO with the Parasite and Biovores. Between League of Votaan and new Astra Militarum, I see more and more use cases for Spore mine blocking so I better just accept the new meta and work on mastering it.
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Post by dkng on Nov 15, 2022 7:54:50 GMT
If you don't mind starting with 1 CP then Gestation Sac on the Parasite is a very flexible choice - you can drop the little gribblies on a point your more important units have to advance from, 2/3 of the time they will provide LoS for the PoM and, in a pinch it can serve you as a one-man BEL scoring mahine. With AC you can advance 20+ and still use the action. Just a thought...
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Post by alx51 on Nov 15, 2022 18:07:08 GMT
thanks for the reports, very interesting to see the thinking behind the evolution of the list !
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Post by zimko on Nov 15, 2022 18:41:37 GMT
If you don't mind starting with 1 CP then Gestation Sac on the Parasite is a very flexible choice - you can drop the little gribblies on a point your more important units have to advance from, 2/3 of the time they will provide LoS for the PoM and, in a pinch it can serve you as a one-man BEL scoring mahine. With AC you can advance 20+ and still use the action. Just a thought... I do like the idea but I also do mind starting with only 1 CP. I think the Parasite will only go aggressive when I can screen him with Raveners AND Spore mines. A few extra Rippers shouldn't matter.
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Post by zimko on Dec 12, 2022 16:01:37 GMT
I finally made it to an RTT with the new list. For reference...
Kraken Battalion HQ - Nuerothrope: Catalyst, Onslaught, Direct Guidance - Nuerothrope: Paroxysm, Psychic Scream - Flyrant: Reaper, Glands, Horror, PScream, Adaptive Bio, TSacs Troops - 10 Hormagaunts - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AG, Flesh Hooks, VC - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AG, Flesh Hooks, VC Elites - 3 Tyrant Guard: LashSword, Glands - 3 Zoanthropes: Nueroparasite - 3 Zoanthropes: Nueroparasite - 4 Venomthropes Fast Attack - 5 Raveners: DSpitters, Rending Claws - 5 Raveners: DSpitters, Rending Claws - Parasite of Mortrex: Alien Cunning Heavy - 3 Biovores 2000 pts, 2 CP
I had 2 wins and a tie. The tie was against League of Votaan.
Assessment: Using Biovores has a learning curve. Each game I played with them they improved. My tie was game 2, and I wasted a couple of rounds of Spore mines due to poor placement. It was a winnable game. Game 3 against Thousand Sons they did much better. I hid them in a centrally located ruin and used them to do significant damage over the course of the game. Despite Psychic Interigation getting shut down for 3 turns, I still scored 91 points.
Cranial Feasting has been my go to 3rd secondary after Banners and Psy Int. It works well and is worth at least 12 every game, usually 15. The only time I don't take it is if another kill secondary, like No Prisoners or Bring it Down, is easier.
Raveners were good. A lot of people have been using them so I'm late on this bandwagon but it's nice to have personal experience with them.
Parasite was nice to have. Highly mobile synapse and obsec, that can advance and perform an action is good. It makes Banners a solid secondary pick on maps where it's usually too challenging to be worth it. The infection ability was useless except the one time I used it to kill the 'anti psyker' assassin that needs 6s to hit. I flew over him, did 2 mortals, then he took 2 in the command phase and dead. That was in game 1 vs Blood Angels. So not useless I guess, just a little trick to keep in your pocket. But for 80 points and a CP the Parasite is well worth the investment for what he does.
Changes: I have a lot of points invested in upgrades that don't do a lot. This list is prep for LVO and the terrain was revealed yesterday. There isn't much use for Flesh Hooks except on 1 awful map that has hills instead of ruins. Hopefully that's one of the maps they said they'd phase out as people drop. Venom Cannons are ok but I barely use em and they usually just end up wasting time rolling extra dice. And Tyrant Guard don't need Adrenal Glands with kraken. So removing all of that gives me 35 points. I could add a Venomthrope, making it a unit of 5 and a powerful anti-monster or infantry unit. Alternatively, I could reduce the Venomthropes to 3, giving me 70 points, and add a Lictor, which could be good for holding exposed objectives or screening out deep strikers. Or I could upgrade the Hormagaunts to 4 more Warriors and add venom cannons to all 3 units. While that does sound tasty, the Hormagaunts have been useful as a disposable screening unit. Without that I may be exposing more expensive units to charges.
Speaking of Venomthropes, this list is much more reactive than my previous lists. My units spend most of their time hiding, waiting for the opportunity to pounce for a favorable trade. This leads to the -1 hit aura on Venomthropes not seeing much use. The fight last ability is good but unreliable. So now I'm questioning whether I need Venomthropes in this list. Sure it hurts Cranial but I usually max it without the Warlord kill, and gaining a CP just requires 1 4+ after killing a character. And with AM possibly not getting their new codex at LVO, I don't need to worry about LOS ignoring stuff from them. So the question is, what do I take instead that is more valuable? Removing the Venomthropes and all the extra upgrades gives me 175 points. I cant add a Ravener unit because FA slots are full. I could add another Zoanthrope unit, since mortals seem to be the most reliable source of damage against both demons and League. I could add a Sporocyst and a Lictor but I'm unsure if the terrain will support a Sporocyst, it's a bit sparse.
Thoughts? Ideas?
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Post by zimko on Dec 13, 2022 21:34:38 GMT
I'm leaning towards trying this next on player placed terrain.
Kraken Battalion HQ - Nuerothrope: Catalyst, Onslaught, Direct Guidance - Nuerothrope: Paroxysm, Psychic Scream - Flyrant: Reaper, Glands, Horror, PScream, Adaptive Bio, TSacs Troops - 10 Hormagaunts - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AGlands - 5 Warriors: DS, BS, AGlands Elites - 3 Tyrant Guard: LashSword - 3 Zoanthropes: Nueroparasite - 3 Zoanthropes: Nueroparasite - 5 Genestealers Fast Attack - 5 Raveners: DSpitters, Rending Claws - 5 Raveners: DSpitters, Rending Claws - Parasite of Mortrex: Alien Cunning Heavy - 3 Biovores Fortification - Sporocyst 2000 pts, 2 CP
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