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Post by Master Chief on May 5, 2022 1:11:57 GMT
To be honest I tried enraged reserves on the Maleceptor as the way I see it you're paying 25 points for a CP, and is not such a bad deal.
And even if Psychic Overload does not get affected by enraged reserves I was surprisingly pleased by the extra movement he gets until he is on his last 4 or last 3 wounds remaining.
But like I said, I mainly see it as spend 25 points to get 1 CP.
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Post by tomb on May 5, 2022 5:52:37 GMT
Agreed. I'm not seeing the dominance of Nids like Dark Eldar, Custodes, Tau and Quinns had. The game overall is in a better place than then. Also the Nid lists are (aside from Leviathan) quite broad with what they consist of and are being beaten by various other books. The best bit though is seeing some of us 'hivers' going 4 -0 and better with our actual codex!
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Post by tomb on May 5, 2022 5:58:16 GMT
I'm a lurker here at this site, but thought I'd add-in my two cents re: maleceptor. There are some suggestions of limiting the ability output to 6 mortal wounds per phase, similar to other mortal wounds generating powers. However, I have another idea. If the mortal wound application of the ability was D3 damage, rather than flat three, it could address these concerns. The avg output would be 6 damage across three casts, with possibilities for spikes, but also dips, in offensive power. The variable output would provide a way for non-psychic and elite armies to better weather the incoming damage in sub-par phases, but still retain the raw potential of the original rule in the event of hot dice. This seems like a safer, fairer way for both Nid players and their opponents to address the mortal wound spam. Whether the nerf is truly needed will be borne out by upcoming tournament results, but in the event the nerf bat is finally raised high, this adjustment could somewhat limit the bleeding for this particular unit. Just my thoughts. This does reduce potential out put but doesn't have the interactivity of my suggested stopping the ability from not needing line of sight. Keep the potential output and strat support etc but limit its additional MW to line of sight and then players have more decisions to make about playing with or against a maleceptor on decent terrain boards.
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Post by garg on May 5, 2022 12:12:28 GMT
I'm a lurker here at this site, but thought I'd add-in my two cents re: maleceptor. There are some suggestions of limiting the ability output to 6 mortal wounds per phase, similar to other mortal wounds generating powers. However, I have another idea. If the mortal wound application of the ability was D3 damage, rather than flat three, it could address these concerns. The avg output would be 6 damage across three casts, with possibilities for spikes, but also dips, in offensive power. The variable output would provide a way for non-psychic and elite armies to better weather the incoming damage in sub-par phases, but still retain the raw potential of the original rule in the event of hot dice. This seems like a safer, fairer way for both Nid players and their opponents to address the mortal wound spam. Whether the nerf is truly needed will be borne out by upcoming tournament results, but in the event the nerf bat is finally raised high, this adjustment could somewhat limit the bleeding for this particular unit. Just my thoughts. Moving to d3 MWs would require a complete re-write of the ability so that output still decreases as the Mal is injured. 2 CP for a Mal to cast a 3rd power is the right first step imo. This just feels like a massive oversight with how the Tfex got 2CP for Scorch Bugs. No way that 1CP for PotHM on a Mal is equal to PotHM on any other Nid Psyker, and is equal to 2CP spent for other factions when used on the Mal (1CP cast again, 1CP for 3 MWs). Hive Nexus could potentially use a change to an unused Synaptic Imperative, but I think the PotHM nerf will correct the problem enough without any impact to the Malceptor's useability for 99% of players. Bonus is that the CP increase of PotHM causes an indirect 25pt increase for the Mal for people wanting to still spam PotHM by making Enraged Reserves an extremely attractive option. You can either rarely use PotHM and not feel much impact or use PotHM heavily and feel a 25pt increase to a Malceptor and less CP efficiency using PotHM 3+ times. Same goes for Monsters using Encircle. I don't hear any griping about how Zoans or Raveners can Encricle. All the complaints are focused on Tyrants/Harpies using it every turn or multiple times per turn. That type of play stops real quick when 4-6 CP lists have to spend an additional CP every time. I like the idea of changing PotHM to 2CP for the masked and it could help to reduce the instances of maleceptors doing 12MW. Changing Nexus to unused SI will reduce the times that a player might give a monster a 4++ and is a good idea in general as it creates more tension in when to use which SIs but it will have almost no effect on the maleceptor because it's SI is more situational than good. I'm not sure what the issue with a cap is, it is a simple fix in line with many other MW abilities and does not indirectly affect anything else. The problem I have with the +1CP to encircle is that it indirectly nerfs all stratagems. It can be invaluable to save your tyrant or Harpy from retaliation that it will likely just push out the user of other stratagems.
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Post by bigbadbalou on May 5, 2022 13:57:29 GMT
Moving to d3 MWs would require a complete re-write of the ability so that output still decreases as the Mal is injured. 2 CP for a Mal to cast a 3rd power is the right first step imo. This just feels like a massive oversight with how the Tfex got 2CP for Scorch Bugs. No way that 1CP for PotHM on a Mal is equal to PotHM on any other Nid Psyker, and is equal to 2CP spent for other factions when used on the Mal (1CP cast again, 1CP for 3 MWs). Hive Nexus could potentially use a change to an unused Synaptic Imperative, but I think the PotHM nerf will correct the problem enough without any impact to the Malceptor's useability for 99% of players. Bonus is that the CP increase of PotHM causes an indirect 25pt increase for the Mal for people wanting to still spam PotHM by making Enraged Reserves an extremely attractive option. You can either rarely use PotHM and not feel much impact or use PotHM heavily and feel a 25pt increase to a Malceptor and less CP efficiency using PotHM 3+ times. Same goes for Monsters using Encircle. I don't hear any griping about how Zoans or Raveners can Encricle. All the complaints are focused on Tyrants/Harpies using it every turn or multiple times per turn. That type of play stops real quick when 4-6 CP lists have to spend an additional CP every time. I like the idea of changing PotHM to 2CP for the masked and it could help to reduce the instances of maleceptors doing 12MW. Changing Nexus to unused SI will reduce the times that a player might give a monster a 4++ and is a good idea in general as it creates more tension in when to use which SIs but it will have almost no effect on the maleceptor because it's SI is more situational than good. I'm not sure what the issue with a cap is, it is a simple fix in line with many other MW abilities and does not indirectly affect anything else. The problem I have with the +1CP to encircle is that it indirectly nerfs all stratagems. It can be invaluable to save your tyrant or Harpy from retaliation that it will likely just push out the user of other stratagems. Pretty sure there is no other abilities that caps the max MW dealt, at least in our codex (I wonder if it's a thing in other codices?). The closest would be zoanthrope which caps it's bonus to MW to +3... but it's not a cap on total MW dealt... So that would be a first thing and not really in line with what is done currently. On the stratagems, yes, a lot of them limits the maximum number of MW. But in the maleceptor case, it's not the stratagem that proc the MW... The idea of raising the cost of CP for specific units (or unit size), on the other hand, is something we already see in some stratagem and would be more in line with the balance GW usually do, like peirsons said. Without impacting the other units (which would keep the CP cost the same), you just balance it with raising the cost the 2CP for the maleceptor for PotHM (since like mentionned, it's not only a 3rd power, but also 3 more MW if more than half health). Even encircle the prey could be raised to 2CP for a monstrous creature, and 1CP for other units. That would make sense I think and would be more elegant as a solution rather than just diminishing the use of a model, or modifying it's abilities, based only on certain interactions with specific stratagems...
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Post by piersonsmuppet on May 6, 2022 17:47:41 GMT
The problem I have with the +1CP to encircle is that it indirectly nerfs all stratagems. It can be invaluable to save your tyrant or Harpy from retaliation that it will likely just push out the user of other stratagems. That is only true if you choose to spam EtP regardless of the increased penalty. I think it is fine if that is what you choose to do, the change is successful in causing increased downsides to use. If you choose to use the strat in ways that are not causing outcry atm, congrats you are unaffected. Stratagem re-writes aren't going to happen, anything more than an added sentence limiting unit or use amount is a pipedream imo. Besides, why have CP costs if those aren't the primary balance points? The strongest strats are always used as much as possible, and I like increased cost as opposed to the 1 use per game imposition. One rewards/penalizes player choice and one eliminates the choice without actually reducing the efficiency of the stratagem when used. I'd honestly prefer if there was no use limit on strats with increasing costs for using the same strat, or all strats are 1 use per game and costed appropriately for one-time use.
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Post by xtztxtxz on May 6, 2022 19:47:58 GMT
Pretty sure there is no other abilities that caps the max MW dealt, at least in our codex (I wonder if it's a thing in other codices?). The closest would be zoanthrope which caps it's bonus to MW to +3... but it's not a cap on total MW dealt... So that would be a first thing and not really in line with what is done currently. I'm really struggling to find any other datasheet abilities that inflict anything close to this many mortal wounds in a single phase... which might be precisely why this is not really in line with what is done currently. Genuinely can't find any examples that get anywhere near 3/6/9MW. Typically these rules are something like 1 or D3mw and are innately capped by triggering once in a phase, such as on a charge. Recent codexes have been very consistent about putting a cap on any stratagem or psychic powers that cause potentially unlimited mortal wounds - even in cases where that's currently impossible, like Acidic Torrent.
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Post by dkng on May 6, 2022 20:48:32 GMT
Pretty sure there is no other abilities that caps the max MW dealt, at least in our codex (I wonder if it's a thing in other codices?). The closest would be zoanthrope which caps it's bonus to MW to +3... but it's not a cap on total MW dealt... So that would be a first thing and not really in line with what is done currently. I'm really struggling to find any other datasheet abilities that inflict anything close to this many mortal wounds in a single phase... which might be precisely why this is not really in line with what is done currently. Genuinely can't find any examples that get anywhere near 3/6/9MW. Typically these rules are something like 1 or D3mw and are innately capped by triggering once in a phase, such as on a charge. Recent codexes have been very consistent about putting a cap on any stratagem or psychic powers that cause potentially unlimited mortal wounds - even in cases where that's currently impossible, like Acidic Torrent. Why cant Mal be the special snowflake? You want all codices to be the same set of rules with just different names? Yet again - Maleceptor is not the problem. Leviathan is the problem and people not playing around the Maleceptor are the problem. DtW, screening, melee pressure - nah they just park 12” away and cry afterwards. Soon the Knights will be out and anyone not bringing enough AT firepower will be whining how Knights are OP. Adapt is what people should do. Oh and btw - last GT was won by custom Eldar - 6 to hit autowound with bonus -2 ap + ignore light cover. Maleceptor’s one turn of glory is nothing compared to that pile of stinking cheese.
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Post by piersonsmuppet on May 6, 2022 23:00:03 GMT
Recent codexes have been very consistent about putting a cap on any stratagem or psychic powers that cause potentially unlimited mortal wounds - even in cases where that's currently impossible, like Acidic Torrent. The Malceptor ability is not potentially unlimited though. Neither is it a single instance of MW output like psychic powers or stratagems, so there is the ability to reduce the output with careful play. There is also more play for DtW and minuses to-cast to affect 3-4 instances vice 1 instance. Imperial armies should just start running an assassin if they don't already. A -2 to-cast at 18” is going to stop a lot of Nid MWs for a paltry 100 pts.
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Post by mattblowers on May 7, 2022 1:30:37 GMT
Recent codexes have been very consistent about putting a cap on any stratagem or psychic powers that cause potentially unlimited mortal wounds - even in cases where that's currently impossible, like Acidic Torrent. The Malceptor ability is not potentially unlimited though. Neither is it a single instance of MW output like psychic powers or stratagems, so there is the ability to reduce the output with careful play. There is also more play for DtW and minuses to-cast to affect 3-4 instances vice 1 instance. Imperial armies should just start running an assassin if they don't already. A -2 to-cast at 18” is going to stop a lot of Nid MWs for a paltry 100 pts. Unlimited? Really? That's a bit hyperbolic don't you think? I found it funny how many people got the abilities wrong initially. Nearly half of the players at the Dallas Open were 'nids and yet the win rate was only 67%. One of two options: either most don't understand 'nids or they got the rules wrong. Mayble a combo of both. But unlimited? That's laughable.
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Post by bigpig on May 7, 2022 2:13:53 GMT
Pretty sure there is no other abilities that caps the max MW dealt, at least in our codex (I wonder if it's a thing in other codices?). The closest would be zoanthrope which caps it's bonus to MW to +3... but it's not a cap on total MW dealt... So that would be a first thing and not really in line with what is done currently. I'm really struggling to find any other datasheet abilities that inflict anything close to this many mortal wounds in a single phase... which might be precisely why this is not really in line with what is done currently. Genuinely can't find any examples that get anywhere near 3/6/9MW. Typically these rules are something like 1 or D3mw and are innately capped by triggering once in a phase, such as on a charge. Recent codexes have been very consistent about putting a cap on any stratagem or psychic powers that cause potentially unlimited mortal wounds - even in cases where that's currently impossible, like Acidic Torrent. Are we referring to caps in other dexes? Last Gasp psychic power in GSC caps at 5MW. They also capped breaking through in Crusher at 6MW. Mirror of Minds psychic power for Harlequins caps at 6. Can't think of others specifically but pretty sure there are some others. Basically anything that involves roll offs with no set max number of roll offs that can happen or trigger on unmodified rolls when you could possibly roll buckets of dice. Edit: Gorgon Poisonous Influence caps at 6MW
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Post by piersonsmuppet on May 7, 2022 3:00:34 GMT
Unlimited? Really? That's a bit hyperbolic don't you think? I found it funny how many people got the abilities wrong initially. Nearly half of the players at the Dallas Open were 'nids and yet the win rate was only 67%. One of two options: either most don't understand 'nids or they got the rules wrong. Mayble a combo of both. But unlimited? That's laughable. I’m confused, I was saying the Malceptors ability is limited (hence not unlimited). Considering that the top nid list used Lurk adaptations as a Leviathan list several times, I’m sure players losing because they didn’t know Nid rules was evened out by players winning because opponents didn’t know Nid rules as well.
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Post by tomb on May 7, 2022 6:27:14 GMT
Unlimited? Really? That's a bit hyperbolic don't you think? I found it funny how many people got the abilities wrong initially. Nearly half of the players at the Dallas Open were 'nids and yet the win rate was only 67%. One of two options: either most don't understand 'nids or they got the rules wrong. Mayble a combo of both. But unlimited? That's laughable. I’m confused, I was saying the Malceptors ability is limited (hence not unlimited). Considering that the top nid list used Lurk adaptations as a Leviathan list several times, I’m sure players losing because they didn’t know Nid rules was evened out by players winning because opponents didn’t know Nid rules as well. Matt was replying to xtztxtxz who in fairness had said potentially unlimited. Anyhoo. I'm not surprised a Leviathan list did so well if he accidentally gained obsec 5 on his bugs! That's immensely powerful. Your certainly right about the levels of uncertainty in Nid rules played last weekend. Similarly I hear we will soon be facing off into a meta that is ready for Nids, fire prisms, hammerheads, aggressors etc Dallas open results will be interesting. Alex McDougal was saying that the GW terrain doesn't allow Harpies to live past round one into tooled up opponents. Whilst I did think a fair bit of our stuff was powerful when I went 4-1 only loosing in the mirror last weekend, I'm fast thinking we are swinging too early on the nerf bat here on the hive and well soon be seeing just how hard Tau and Eldar can counter us!
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Post by joysan76 on May 7, 2022 6:32:09 GMT
really...
maleceptor cast 2 power or do one sin-action so basically he do 3-6 mw only if casting them he roll 7+, only if people is wirhin 12", only if the enemy don't deny them, only if the enemy don't nerf it...
sure the damage output may increase BUT always remembering what already told... i must also...
use 1 cp to cast one additional power, use a specific biofleet to have a specific bofleet power, cast the bio-fleet specific psi-power, give him a specfic sin-link bonus, and may be use other cp or dedicated points to throw him nearby my enemy units... also considering the announced change of the cp sistem...
i really don't think the problem is the maleceptor... a skilled player have many way to limit its mortal wounds spawn
people need only a month to play against us and know we better to change their lists and whine less
sure also our codex need some fix...
we have some units under cost for their new stateline/equip (as warriors) we have untis missing keys (zoanthrope and swarms) we may have some hvc point adjustment
but... i don't think there is the need of more
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Post by purestrain on May 7, 2022 7:22:00 GMT
"beyond S tier"
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