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Post by tomb on May 1, 2022 19:55:58 GMT
I havnt see the DallasxOpen results but apparently all the best Nids went 4-1, hardly s tier. Including the boy king himself Johnny Lennon losing to TSons. Ive just played a GT with new Nids, went into game one with no practice with the codex, lost into a double maleceptor mirror then won (4-1) all my other games. I didn't run maleceptors, Neuros, venoms or T guard but did run double harpy triple tyrant (4 cp!) and comfortable won my games. Maleceptors and Harpies need a points increase. Everything else is fine IMHO. Honestly, making PotHM cost 2 CP for a Malceptor could be better than a pts increase. Will cause Enraged Reserves to be a favorable take on one increasing “cost” by 25 and making the second Mal super inefficient. Pts won’t fix the issue as a ~30 pt increase is needed to affect lust building, but it doesn’t actually address any if the reasons Malceptors are getting grief. Our units are fine imo, the underlying stratagems and fleet support are what introduce potential issues. I'm not sure if it's just Leviathan or not but Harpies MW bomb is what should put up the points for Harpies, that or a cap on the amount they can do. Similarly the Mal is too effective, I'm not sure if I'd want any strats to go up. Encircle the pray is damn good but any strat increases also reduce our access to tyrants or the suit of strats we have possibly reducing the diversity of the book. Increasing points on the Mal or harpy may mean singles are taken and more of the other stuff is taken too?
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Post by piersonsmuppet on May 1, 2022 20:32:12 GMT
Pts increases really only have an effect on list building when units are taken en multiple and/or if they are being aggressively played alongside TTL (ex. Dima for both). How do you increase the cost of a model being taken mainly in singles as a fix to an issue that is caused by strats and a psychic power? The only way is to price it so badly that the unit is no longer an effective choice, so why would you even take it at that point.
Harpy are only “broken” again because of Encircle the prey. Points once again won’t affect the issue unless it makes Harpies a poor choice. Flying Tyrants are able to be played way too aggressively without much penalty thanks to Encircle, so I have no tears over a CP increase affecting them. It’s only an issue if you use the strat on Harpies and Tyrants every turn. Custodes had the same thing and got knocked to once per game for the offending strats…
Since 8E, strats have been the root cause of issues more often than pts values. The recent data slate actually shows promise that GW actually recognizes the root cause.
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Post by xtztxtxz on May 1, 2022 21:03:26 GMT
Maleceptor finally matches lore, and now everyone cries for a nerf? jesus, this is getting tiresome. You have to be a specific hive fleet, CAST A SPELL AND NOT BE DENIED EACH TIME in order for his wombo to go off. Anyone with half a brain will just put chaff in front of him so that he just does what tzeench flamers or magnus does. Harpies are not strong for their points cost. a heldrake costs 5 points less, gets access to an auto hitting gun, has a 5++ innate, regens 1w a turn and has claws that deal 4d to aircraft. Also has access to the psychic power to increase its A and S... people need to get a grip. Just because space marines can kill a thousand gaunts in the lore doesn't mean that should translate directly to the tabletop. Heldrakes are putting out 2 damage attacks on most of their targets. Meanwhile Harpies laugh at any -1D defenses with flat damage 4 and mortal wounds. There's a reason one of them is currently appearing in way more competitive lists. Not all factions have a chaff unit to sacrifice each turn, and 10-15 MW from one unit (plus 20-30mw total from the army) is at the point where you can actually blow through chaff and start landing damage on the things behind it. I'm glad you brought up Magnus. His mortal wound output is fairly comparable to a Maleceptor, despite the latter costing 38% in relative points. What's more, the Maleceptor has +1T, +1Sv, same invuln, and only 3 fewer wounds. 170pts versus 450pts, lmao. Great way to support the argument from the AoW guys you disagreed with. Encircle the prey sounded like they didn't like the non interactive aspect. If that's the case, drop it to once per game. Limiting strong stratagems to once per game is a really lazy way to 'fix' them. Comparable strats from other codexes can do the same thing, but have restrictions like not being able to use it while enemy units are within 6". Why not just do that? At least then there's some room for counterplay / interactivity. I havnt see the DallasxOpen results but apparently all the best Nids went 4-1, hardly s tier. Including the boy king himself Johnny Lennon losing to TSons. Ive just played a GT with new Nids, went into game one with no practice with the codex, lost into a double maleceptor mirror then won (4-1) all my other games. I didn't run maleceptors, Neuros, venoms or T guard but did run double harpy triple tyrant (4 cp!) and comfortable won my games. Maleceptors and Harpies need a points increase. Everything else is fine IMHO. The final results are coming in now and it looks like the highest Nids finishes are 3rd and 4th, beaten by Eldar & Tau (who surely still need their own balance attention in future). However to put that in context from the whole Dallas Open there were 14 Tyranid players check into BCP, forming about 10% of available players. There are five in the top 10, nine in the top 20. That means around 10% of players took 50% of top places. Also, all the other non-Tyranid top 5 players are Art of War guys who've spent the last few months working out how to deal with Tyranid lists when they show up. One of them was speaking in the video linked on the last page.
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Post by xtztxtxz on May 1, 2022 21:06:30 GMT
Pts increases really only have an effect on list building when units are taken en multiple and/or if they are being aggressively played alongside TTL (ex. Dima for both). How do you increase the cost of a model being taken mainly in singles as a fix to an issue that is caused by strats and a psychic power? The only way is to price it so badly that the unit is no longer an effective choice, so why would you even take it at that point. Fully agree with this. As I said earlier, only Leviathan can squeeze 12mw from Psychic overload, so why should Kraken or Behemoth pay more points for a Maleceptor when they're far more likely to see 6/9mw?
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on May 1, 2022 21:50:01 GMT
Encircle the prey sounded like they didn't like the non interactive aspect. If that's the case, drop it to once per game. Limiting strong stratagems to once per game is a really lazy way to 'fix' them. Comparable strats from other codexes can do the same thing, but have restrictions like not being able to use it while enemy units are within 6". Why not just do that? At least then there's some room for counterplay / interactivity. Good idea! I'm not too familiar with other books strategems. Always good to learn what other books have. The 6" counter play would be a fun way to handle it.
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Post by DukeMantis on May 1, 2022 22:05:38 GMT
I'm just watching this now, a guy who won a tourney with levi double maleceptor, although he seems more worried about the Harpy power level
Video includes a recent GT roundup with army list reviews, thoughts on other fleets etc
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Post by piersonsmuppet on May 1, 2022 22:10:41 GMT
I'm glad you brought up Magnus. His mortal wound output is fairly comparable to a Maleceptor, despite the latter costing 38% in relative points. What's more, the Maleceptor has +1T, +1Sv, same invuln, and only 3 fewer wounds. 170pts versus 450pts, lmao. Great way to support the argument from the AoW guys you disagreed with. Magnus has quite a bit more going for him than pure MW output, I don't think comparing some aspects of both models paints an accurate disparity in cost. Malceptor is a 3+/4++, how does it have +1Sv? If anthing Magnus has pseudo +1Sv thanks to AoC. Also, all the other non-Tyranid top 5 players are Art of War guys who've spent the last few months working out how to deal with Tyranid lists when they show up. One of them was speaking in the video linked on the last page. So, essentially the huge outcry against Nids is partially moot once lists have taken Nids into account. Nids placing well with a strong Codex is not surprising, especially since a majority of the Meta was still tuned to beating the Tau/Custode/Harli triad. 5/10 of the top ten is not as bad as Drukhari taking 7/10 or 8/10 in a meta designed solely to beat them, so Nids not as bad as the initial outcry has been just based on Dallas (Lennon said they were going to be worse than Drukhari, and that has been shown as false for the moment). Do we need adjustments? At this time no, but a few more weeks could reveal a problem. Nids may not even be a problem until more winning factions take a hit, but by that time Knights and CSM could be keeping us in check.
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Post by purestrain on May 1, 2022 23:56:26 GMT
"beyond S tier"
beat by an already nerfed army and the prior newdex.
KNEE JERK REACTIONS
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Post by hiveoverall on May 2, 2022 7:37:51 GMT
I love our new nid codex but winning feels way too easy right now, I am all for us getting a huge swing of the nerf bat, much like custodes got. I liked winning when we were underdogs (before crusher stamp), now you here opponents complain throughout all the game it just takes all the fun away innit ? Cap on maleceptor MWs 20-30 point inc on harpy Point inc on pyros, warriors, and a few other units Rewrite levi psychic, it’s way too good
That would be a good start. I’ll try my dark angels until then, bikes seem fun now, as orks and gsc feel currently terrible to play against AOC
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Post by tomb on May 2, 2022 8:59:45 GMT
I love our new nid codex but winning feels way too easy right now, I am all for us getting a huge swing of the nerf bat, much like custodes got. I liked winning when we were underdogs (before crusher stamp), now you here opponents complain throughout all the game it just takes all the fun away innit ? Cap on maleceptor MWs 20-30 point inc on harpy Point inc on pyros, warriors, and a few other units Rewrite levi psychic, it’s way too good That would be a good start. I’ll try my dark angels until then, bikes seem fun now, as orks and gsc feel currently terrible to play against AOC I'd personally disagree with a custodes level nerf or a huge nerf batting. Custodes were dumb broken for six plus months and are still top tier (but custodes players got too used to winning and now feel that they can't compete). Nids do not have the power level of old Custodes but do have a couple of very efficient units for thier cost. As Nid players we've pretty much (pre crusher lev) been used to playing on hard mode. The new book is the best codex we've ever had and into the top armies plays well. As ever, aside from some changes to Mals and Harpies GW needs to bring the bottom armies up not swing too hard on a codex that's only been out a month, let it play six months with a gentle points adjustment but clear FAQ. The FAQ needs to clarify the mistakes in the codex (Neuro synpapse etc) but also needs to cap encircle to one unit a turn, clarify the reapers mortal wounds and state if Harpies can bomb from wings or base. If they want to add gentle nerfs then changing the wording on Harpies bombing to stop them bombing on a fallback move allows more interaction from the opponent and changing Maleceptors aura MWs to only be units in sight. Both of these give opponents choices on how to deal with Mals and Harpies without affecting strats and points.
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Post by dkng on May 2, 2022 11:06:11 GMT
Just ban Levi from tournaments and that’s it
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Post by piersonsmuppet on May 2, 2022 11:24:09 GMT
If they want to add gentle nerfs then changing the wording on Harpies bombing to stop them bombing on a fallback move allows more interaction from the opponent… Harpy can normal move out of engagement since it is an aircraft.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on May 2, 2022 12:31:37 GMT
Tau were just as bad as custodes competitive level wise for about the same amount of time and got a much lighter nerf.
One issue with the custodes need is that the books internal balance is terrible now and that the book now has to lean on forgeworld to compete. Custodes now have no deep strike or fast moving obsec outside of forgeworld, so they basically have to use forgeworld.
The strats nerf was a bit too harsh as well. They strats shouldn't have been allowed to be combined together IMO but once per game gives custodes only a single turn of hightened durability on one unit. After that turn, they'll be much easier to remove.
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Post by purestrain on May 2, 2022 13:23:39 GMT
I love our new nid codex but winning feels way too easy right now, I am all for us getting a huge swing of the nerf bat, much like custodes got. I liked winning when we were underdogs (before crusher stamp), now you here opponents complain throughout all the game it just takes all the fun away innit ? Cap on maleceptor MWs 20-30 point inc on harpy Point inc on pyros, warriors, and a few other units Rewrite levi psychic, it’s way too good That would be a good start. I’ll try my dark angels until then, bikes seem fun now, as orks and gsc feel currently terrible to play against AOC Why even play them if you think they're way overpowered? Because they arent. also, maybe play some people who can adapt to a new codex, not just get crushed. No cap on maleceptor, these "urr durr 30 mortals" are outliers and take a lot of combo work to achieve, along with nobody having the ability to deny spells. Harpy doesnt need a points increase, it was utter trash for a very long time, and is finally able to put in work. Pyros warriors and others dont need a points increase, they all die pretty easily and bounce off of power armor constantly now. No... just no, no rewrites. its not "way too good", its useful.
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Post by wcgnidz on May 2, 2022 14:12:44 GMT
www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/duplicates/ugo5qj/meta_monday_5222_lets_go/these numbers are actually very similar to last weekends win %. Nids top 5 faction win% is wayyy too high(32%, basically more than double the next highest representation). But 62% with next highest being 60% is the healthiest the meta has been in a while. Important note to the stats lots of reported mirror matches for nids players at the dallas event(biggest event) which defn deflates the nid win %. But still, not 70 or 80% win bracket with the mirror. And compared to last weekend nids went down 1% and harlies went down...2%? i think? Including mirror the nids are at highest faction approx 72%(far too high). Personal opinion, a few adjustments are defn 100% needed for nids(cough cough harpy). It's less OP than we initially thought imo after AoC(and defn with knowing levi and crusher are out). But what would be easier*/cooler* would be if they did something akin to AoC for the weaker performing factions. Cause most factions are back in the 50%s which is where we wanna see them IMO. Other anecdotal observations, right now the two factions checking eachother the most are the eldar dex and the nid dex. So an adjustment to either could shift the win dynamic of the less affected book significantly. Eldar already got love tapped by dataslate so hopefully nids don't get overcorrected too badly. But that said, some adjustment almost certainly needed. And knights coming will absolutely shift the win rates of those two factions shortly. I suspect/predict new nids are actually a few pts higher win % than the last two weekends win rates(stats, we only have like ~2 weekends sample sizes), but i predict knights will come down harder on nids than on eldar. Also ignoring those two predictions, harpy obv needs a nerf and if that's nerfed even just appropriately....the lists doing well for nids are all always using 2x harpies. Just that change may bring nids into the 50's. Also important to note almost all the nids doing well are leviathan. Like 90% of the nids going bonkers are leviathan. And honorable mention a 10 tyrannocyte list placed 7th at the biggest event this weekend(dallas) which craftworld eldar won(nick N).
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