Carnifexes and Screamer killers.

[N.I.B.]

Cool. A shame both adaptations are from Lurk, hard to pass on ObSec monsters.

[dkng]

Apr 11, 2022 17:22:48 GMT N.I.B. said:

Cool. A shame both adaptations are from Lurk, hard to pass on ObSec monsters.

Natural Camo is kind of tailored for more swarmy or rather infantry based lists as monsters cant get benefits of terrain features cover like light cover from lets say craters or barricades.

[Jbizzy]

Apr 11, 2022 17:32:54 GMT dkng said:

Apr 11, 2022 17:22:48 GMT N.I.B. said:

Cool. A shame both adaptations are from Lurk, hard to pass on ObSec monsters.

Natural Camo is kind of tailored for more swarmy or rather infantry based lists as monsters cant get benefits of terrain features cover like light cover from lets say craters or barricades.

Jorm gives dense cover to monsters against shooting from 18"+. So with naturalized camo the get the +1 bonus from light cover. But hard to pass up obsec secure on those monsters.

Oops, to bad.

[piersonsmuppet]

Apr 11, 2022 22:20:35 GMT Jbizzy said:

Jorm gives dense cover to monsters against shooting from 18"+. So with naturalized camo the get the +1 bonus from light cover. But hard to pass up obsec secure on those monsters.

That doesn’t work, Natural Camo requires the benefit of cover to come from terrain.

[grave77digger]

Jorm and natural Camo do work. See last paragraph

RARE RULES
The rules in this section describe some of the more uncommon advanced rules, as well as rare situations that arise when one uncommon rule interacts with another, and how to resolve them.

BENEFITS OF COVER WHEN NOT IN TERRAIN
Sometimes a rule will tell you that a model or unit gains the benefit of cover, even while they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature. If a model or unit is under the effects of such a rule, and that rule does not specify what the benefits of cover are, when resolving an attack that model is assumed to be entirely on or within a terrain feature with the Light Cover terrain trait for all rules purposes. This means that when an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a model under the effect of this rule, add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack (invulnerable saving throws are not affected).

If a model or unit has a rule that only applies while it is receiving the benefits of cover, then that rule will apply while that model or unit is under the effects of any rule that states it gains the benefit of cover even while they are not entirely on or within a terrain feature.

[piersonsmuppet]

Apr 12, 2022 3:47:51 GMT grave77digger said:

Jorm and natural Camo do work. See last paragraph

RARE RULES
The rules in this section describe some of the more uncommon advanced rules, as well as rare situations that arise when one uncommon rule interacts with another, and how to resolve them.

BENEFITS OF COVER WHEN NOT IN TERRAIN
Sometimes a rule will tell you that a model or unit gains the benefit of cover, even while they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature. If a model or unit is under the effects of such a rule, and that rule does not specify what the benefits of cover are, when resolving an attack that model is assumed to be entirely on or within a terrain feature with the Light Cover terrain trait for all rules purposes. This means that when an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a model under the effect of this rule, add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack (invulnerable saving throws are not affected).

If a model or unit has a rule that only applies while it is receiving the benefits of cover, then that rule will apply while that model or unit is under the effects of any rule that states it gains the benefit of cover even while they are not entirely on or within a terrain feature.

The last sentence looks more like it is stating that a model can be partially in terrain to benefit from its rule, not that it can be completely outside of terrain. If Jorm & Nat Camo work, then Carnifex Spore Cysts and Nat Camo also works. That doesn't seem right...

[dkng]

NatCam rules states the benefit has to come from terrain piece.

Naturalised Camouflage
Each time a ranged attack is allocated to a model with this Adaptation while it is receiving the benefits of cover from a terrain feature, add an additional 1 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.

So it does not work with Jorm (that would be OP as fk) and it does not work with Spore Cysts. Otherwise it would not specify „from terrain”. As it is, specific rules take precedence over general rules and the benefit can only come from terrain.

Moving on to monsters and cover:

Light Cover
When an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a model that is receiving the benefits of cover from this terrain feature, add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack (invulnerable saving throws are not affected).

But...

Whether its an Obstacle or Area Terrain only Infantry, Beasts and Swarms can get the benefit. The exception is Dense Cover as it works when models shoot through it, not „into” it. This is the only thing that can trigger +1 save for monster with NatCam really hence I said, NatCam is better suited for armies with lower monster count.

[niiai]

Apr 11, 2022 14:36:25 GMT dkng said:

Apr 11, 2022 13:29:52 GMT nemrod said:

Can some1 explain this please?

Let me try

„Dense Cover
If this terrain feature is at least 3" in height, then subtract 1 from the hit roll when resolving an attack with a ranged weapon unless you can draw straight lines, 1mm in thickness, to every part of at least one model’s base (or hull) in the target unit from a single point on the attacking model's base (or hull) without any of those lines passing over or through any part of any terrain feature with this trait. Models that are on or within an Area Terrain feature with this trait do not suffer this penalty if the only terrain feature these lines pass over or through is the terrain feature that the attacking model is on or within. Models within 3" of an Obstacle terrain feature with this trait do not suffer this penalty if the only terrain feature these lines pass over or through is the terrain feature that the attacking model is within 3" of. The height of a terrain feature is measured from the highest point on that terrain feature.

Models do not suffer this penalty to their hit rolls when making an attack with a ranged weapon that targets an AIRCRAFT unit, or a unit that includes any models with a Wounds (W) characteristic of 18 or more, even if this terrain feature is between it and the firing model (note that the reverse is not true).”

That means dense cover has to be inbetween the models to take effect - the target gets „benefits of cover”.

„Sometimes a rule will tell you that a model or unit gains the benefit of cover, even while they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature. If a model or unit is under the effects of such a rule, and that rule does not specify what the benefits of cover are, when resolving an attack that model is assumed to be entirely on or within a terrain feature with the Light Cover terrain trait for all rules purposes. This means that when an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a model under the effect of this rule, add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack (invulnerable saving throws are not affected).

If a model or unit has a rule that only applies while it is receiving the benefits of cover, then that rule will apply while that model or unit is under the effects of any rule that states it gains the benefit of cover even while they are not entirely on or within a terrain feature.”

So... our Carnifex is receiving the benefits of Dense cover so it gets +1 to save from Naturalised Camo. Another +1 from Light cover from the Spore Cyst. As they have a Natural 2+ this turns into 0+

I am also thick. How does the trick work? What gives monsters dence cover?

Is it the spore cysts that trigger this? I am confused. What is the spruce that gives a monster benefit of cover?

Also, sorry for resurrecting such a long thread. But where are you standing on the following fexes now that we have had some games with them:

-Screamer killer as cheap as possible
-Screamer killer with adrenal gland
-Melee fex
-Dakkafex with venom cannon
-Dakkafex without venom cannon
-Hybrodfex with venom cannon

[piersonsmuppet]

Carnifex starts at a 2+ Sv, Dense Cover would come from a terrain feature existing between the shooting model and the Carnifex causing Natural Camo to bring the Carnifex to a 1+ Sv, and Spore Cysts would give it Light Cover bringing the Carnifex to a 0+ Sv.

Quick thoughts:

-Screamer killer as cheap as possible - Okay as a 1-2 in Behemoth
-Screamer killer with adrenal gland - Okay as a 1-2
-Melee fex - Worse than Screamer Killer, only is better if doing CST/CC config
-Dakkafex with venom cannon - Okay, possibly better than Screamer Killer
-Dakkafex without venom cannon - Worst option
-Hybrodfex with venom cannon - Best option

[Jbizzy]

Hyrbodfex?

[niiai]

Ok. Follow up question regarding the terrain question: I thought the terrain rules worked like this:

Each terrain has one of four category: Hill, Aria terrain, terrain feature (?) or building. Hills are just hills. Building can be killed. Aria terrain and terrain feature comes with keywords. If the you receive the benefit of the terrain you get all the keywords.

Aria terrain gives the terrain rules to infantry, swarm and beasts if they are in the aria terrain.

Terrain feature gives the terrain rules to infantery, swarm and beast if they are within 3 of them.

However, none of these gives the terrain feature bonuses to tanks, monsters (bikes and cavalry?)

Is there something about dence terrain I am missing? I know the obscuring trait blocks LoS unless you have 18 wounds or is an airplane.

Please comment.

Hydrofex is a combination of my dyslexia and my phone auto correcting. I meant to say hybridfex.

[Jbizzy]

Apr 18, 2022 19:20:53 GMT niiai said:

Ok. Follow up question regarding the terrain question: I thought the terrain rules worked like this:

Each terrain has one of four category: Hill, Aria terrain, terrain feature (?) or building. Hills are just hills. Building can be killed. Aria terrain and terrain feature comes with keywords. If the you receive the benefit of the terrain you get all the keywords.

Aria terrain gives the terrain rules to infantry, swarm and beasts if they are in the aria terrain.

Terrain feature gives the terrain rules to infantery, swarm and beast if they are within 3 of them.

However, none of these gives the terrain feature bonuses to tanks, monsters (bikes and cavalry?)

Is there something about dence terrain I am missing? I know the obscuring trait blocks LoS unless you have 18 wounds or is an airplane.

Please comment.

Hydrofex is a combination of my dyslexia and my phone auto correcting. I meant to say hybridfex.

Okay, but what load-out for Hydrofex? Crushing Claws and Venomcannon? Maybe Crushing Claws and deathspitters for shooting heavy infantry?

[piersonsmuppet]

Apr 18, 2022 19:20:53 GMT niiai said:

Is there something about dence terrain I am missing? I know the obscuring trait blocks LoS unless you have 18 wounds or is an airplane.

Dense Cover is a terrain trait and is not restricted to Infantry, Beast, or Swarm. 

[bolk]

Apr 18, 2022 19:57:02 GMT Jbizzy said:

Apr 18, 2022 19:20:53 GMT niiai said:

Ok. Follow up question regarding the terrain question: I thought the terrain rules worked like this:

Each terrain has one of four category: Hill, Aria terrain, terrain feature (?) or building. Hills are just hills. Building can be killed. Aria terrain and terrain feature comes with keywords. If the you receive the benefit of the terrain you get all the keywords.

Aria terrain gives the terrain rules to infantry, swarm and beasts if they are in the aria terrain.

Terrain feature gives the terrain rules to infantery, swarm and beast if they are within 3 of them.

However, none of these gives the terrain feature bonuses to tanks, monsters (bikes and cavalry?)

Is there something about dence terrain I am missing? I know the obscuring trait blocks LoS unless you have 18 wounds or is an airplane.

Please comment.

Hydrofex is a combination of my dyslexia and my phone auto correcting. I meant to say hybridfex.

Okay, but what load-out for Hydrofex? Crushing Claws and Venomcannon? Maybe Crushing Claws and deathspitters for shooting heavy infantry?

Hybridfex would be any mix of melee and shooting weapon; ST and HVC, CC and Devourers, CC and HVC etc.
But with CC not having -1 to hit anymore and vastly improved stats, I would say CC and HVC is the best Hybridfex atm. Only thing is CC cost 10 pts more.
Deathspitters could be a thing if you're kitting out for heavy infantry, but again we have many things already that do that job. HVC can only be equipped by Tyrants, Carnifexes and Harpies.

[niiai]

Apr 18, 2022 20:11:26 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

Apr 18, 2022 19:20:53 GMT niiai said:

Is there something about dence terrain I am missing? I know the obscuring trait blocks LoS unless you have 18 wounds or is an airplane.

Dense Cover is a terrain trait and is not restricted to Infantry, Beast, or Swarm. 

Either my understanding of the terrain rules are wrong, or you do not get the benefit from dence cover.

Think of the terrain categories as buckets. Hill, Obstacle, Area Terrain and Building. Hill and Building are not important for this. Now each of these buckets come with a number of rules. But in order to get the benefit from that bucket they need to gain the attension of that cover. Area Terrain gives the bonus to Infantery, Beast and Swarm if they are in it. Opstacles give the bonus to infantery, beast and swarm if they are within 3". (And often you need to have the terrain between yourself and the thingshooting, but that depends on the keywords.)

While dence cover comes with a lot of text, the monster or tank does not get the attension of dence cover because they are not infnatery, beats or swarm.

From what I can see obscuring is the only rule that ignores this.

Am I reaidng it wrong? I might be. Is it FAQ somewhere?