LVO faq

[beetlejuice]

So the LVO faq has some really strange rulings, it kinda makes me wonder if they even properly read the rules text.

The latest entry:
1/15/22 Does Crusher Stampede fight on death stratagem (Death Frenzy) allow you to fight twice when your model dies? Answer: No.

I have no idea how to interpret this since the question is so poorly phrased and the answer is bland. First of all, there is no crusher stampede stratagem called death frenzy, bit I assume they mean death surge.

Death surge I think we all agree RAW is quite different from stratagems like only in death does duty end that there is no stipulation you can’t use it if you already fought. So charge-fight-die-death surge-fight should be allowed.

I think this faq says no to the above? Essentially making it the same as other factions fight on death.

But that also means I don’t know what the ruling is for the actual death frenzy stratagem from our 8th ed codex. Having a broodlord charge-fight-die-death frenzy-fight on death has been a staple strategy for years, hasn’t it? Is that not allowed at lvo?

The final interpretation I could think of, is of the question actually refers to using adrenaline surge in combination with death surge to fight twice on death (potentially 3 times in a fight phase with normal activation) and that is what they are actually ruling no on (which seems reasonably imo).

Thoughts? How will you guys play this at LVO?

Bonus question: stacking death surge and animated by the hive mind. Allowed/not allowed? Can you choose the order?

[piersonsmuppet]

Ruling looks correct imo. Death Frenzy wording: "immediately fight as if it were the fight phase". Death Surge wording: "can fight after the attacking unit". The way I've played it is that Death Surge gives the Lashwhip effect, since it looks like it just continues eligibility to fight and doesn't force an immediate fight like Frenzy (any eligible unit can fight after the opponents attacking unit). There is no overt "can't use after having fought", but there is also no permission to fight outside of the normal Fight Phase rules other than it can still be selected to fight. I think staying in-line with the 9E changes to fight on death is important for balance. Tyranids keeping a fight on death after already having fought on a model likely buffed with +3dA and rr hits is not good for the game, eliminates a lot of strategic play when you can just throw suicide powerhouses into the opponent and always trade up in pts.

Bonus: You choose the order for simultaneous abilities. Just use Animated first, since the effect is performed when removing the model. I don't think the order of resolution matters though, since neither happens immediately upon use.

Edit: Though maybe I've played that a bit wrong. Thought Death Surge was after models finished fighting, but it's after making attacks. I think I still lean towards still has to be eligible to fight since it doesn't have wording like Death Frenzy (and 9E like strat considerations).

[purestrain]

Jan 24, 2022 14:49:13 GMT beetlejuice said:

So the LVO faq has some really strange rulings, it kinda makes me wonder if they even properly read the rules text.

The latest entry:
1/15/22 Does Crusher Stampede fight on death stratagem (Death Frenzy) allow you to fight twice when your model dies? Answer: No.

I have no idea how to interpret this since the question is so poorly phrased and the answer is bland. First of all, there is no crusher stampede stratagem called death frenzy, bit I assume they mean death surge.

Death surge I think we all agree RAW is quite different from stratagems like only in death does duty end that there is no stipulation you can’t use it if you already fought. So charge-fight-die-death surge-fight should be allowed.

I think this faq says no to the above? Essentially making it the same as other factions fight on death.

But that also means I don’t know what the ruling is for the actual death frenzy stratagem from our 8th ed codex. Having a broodlord charge-fight-die-death frenzy-fight on death has been a staple strategy for years, hasn’t it? Is that not allowed at lvo?

The final interpretation I could think of, is of the question actually refers to using adrenaline surge in combination with death surge to fight twice on death (potentially 3 times in a fight phase with normal activation) and that is what they are actually ruling no on (which seems reasonably imo).

Thoughts? How will you guys play this at LVO?

Bonus question: stacking death surge and animated by the hive mind. Allowed/not allowed? Can you choose the order?

1. Bad FAQ, its explicitly states that you can make your attacks AFTER the attacking unit has made its own, which means even if you fought, it allows you to fight after you get attacked when you die. This is supported by the Hybrid Metamorph built in ability (savage amalgam) that allows them to make attacks IF they havent when they die.
2. It's allowed, id say you have to death throws first when you reach 0 wounds and before you are removed from play, then death surge because you are counted as being at your top bracket, whether or not you count as having that amount of wounds or just the bracket itself is a question in of itself. imo

[piersonsmuppet]

Jan 24, 2022 16:31:37 GMT purestrain said:

1. Bad FAQ, its explicitly states that you can make your attacks AFTER the attacking unit has made its own, which means even if you fought, it allows you to fight after you get attacked when you die. This is supported by the Hybrid Metamorph built in ability (savage amalgam) that allows them to make attacks IF they havent when they die.

Fight Again: Some rules allow units to fight again in the Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’. Death Surge has neither of those wordings, like Frenzy or Surge, and so permission is not given to exceed the once per fight phase limitation.

[purestrain]

Jan 24, 2022 16:43:18 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

Jan 24, 2022 16:31:37 GMT purestrain said:

1. Bad FAQ, its explicitly states that you can make your attacks AFTER the attacking unit has made its own, which means even if you fought, it allows you to fight after you get attacked when you die. This is supported by the Hybrid Metamorph built in ability (savage amalgam) that allows them to make attacks IF they havent when they die.

Fight Again: Some rules allow units to fight again in the Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’. Death Surge has neither of those wordings, like Frenzy or Surge, and so permission is not given to exceed the once per fight phase limitation.

Fine, but reasoning like this is why we never get nice things, they read these and apply them as seen instead of thinking maybe "huh, it should be able to"

[piersonsmuppet]

The CS rules were written well after the Fight Again rules (original 9E advanced rule), so I think RAW and RAI match (especially with every 9E codex losing fight twice on death [GSC?]). I think it is still a very nice Stratagem to have, as a non-character monster can't just be one-rounded by a charging unit with no repercussions. Instead of being oppressive (which it was), it's now strong but fair.

[beetlejuice]

Jan 24, 2022 16:43:18 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

Jan 24, 2022 16:31:37 GMT purestrain said:

1. Bad FAQ, its explicitly states that you can make your attacks AFTER the attacking unit has made its own, which means even if you fought, it allows you to fight after you get attacked when you die. This is supported by the Hybrid Metamorph built in ability (savage amalgam) that allows them to make attacks IF they havent when they die.

Fight Again: Some rules allow units to fight again in the Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’. Death Surge has neither of those wordings, like Frenzy or Surge, and so permission is not given to exceed the once per fight phase limitation.

is fight again really the same thing as fight on death? My interpretation is fight again refers to things like khorne beserkers, trajann, adrenaline surge etc.

There’s lots of stratagems that let you do stuff without explicitly saying you ignore some core limitation. That’s kinda the thing with strats, they let you deviate from core rules and limitations.

[piersonsmuppet]

Jan 24, 2022 19:17:30 GMT beetlejuice said:

is fight again really the same thing as fight on death? My interpretation is fight again refers to things like khorne beserkers, trajann, adrenaline surge etc.

There’s lots of stratagems that let you do stuff without explicitly saying you ignore some core limitation. That’s kinda the thing with strats, they let you deviate from core rules and limitations.

You are right they are different, but if you've already fought then you still have to abide by fight phase/fight again rules. If a codex rule doesn't directly conflict with a core rule, then you still have to follow the core rule. Fighting on death just permits fighting after dying, which is the part that deviates (directly conflicts) from the Core Rules. If nothing gives explicit permission to fight even if the model already fought, why would we get to assume we can ignore the Core Rule limitation of fighting once per fight phase and the two wordings that are the only explicit exemptions to fighting more than once in a fight phase ("fight again' and "fight as if fight phase")? Death Surge allowing fighting twice involves an assumption of RAI that directly conflicts with explicit RAW.

Since Core Rules have explicit restrictions and exemptions, a Codex specific exemption is needed to deviate. The only Strats that allowed non-explicit deviations were 8E holdovers, though I think the advanced rule errata last year filled the holes.

[niiai]

Where is the erata? I can not see it.

[beetlejuice]

Jan 25, 2022 0:16:17 GMT niiai said:

Where is the erata? I can not see it.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/2/d/e/2PACX-1vTRb_oZQoE62_1juj8h4zFNAofvlCqEHDcUOXfw4fEjJUbeIwF518QAkfVyHQryu8aW98fWEfRZbbAH/pubhtml?gid=1521588732&single=true&fbclid=IwAR0pittbIPUZkru90JDP9SWj3Q4cIOLmQzkfvC9zFDVl7xF0XkAVnc8TF44

Strictly FLG event FAQ so this is for LVO. Not official GW FAQ

[tylertt]

One other weird LVO ruling..

I haven't had a chance to read it, but the LVO FAQ supposedly prevents the Harridan from deploying on some maps I heard. Which is weird as everywhere else I've seen this topic it allows it to delopy with wings overhanging deployment zone but not the side of the table (battlefield edge).

[zimko]

Jan 25, 2022 10:06:06 GMT tylertt said:

One other weird LVO ruling..

I haven't had a chance to read it, but the LVO FAQ supposedly prevents the Harridan from deploying on some maps I heard. Which is weird as everywhere else I've seen this topic it allows it to delopy with wings overhanging deployment zone but not the side of the table (battlefield edge).

They are allowing it to deploy, what they're not allowing is it acting on turn 1. Because the rule for whether or not a unit can act on turn 1 is separate from the rule about whether or not a model can be deployed. At least that's how they're looking at it.

[No One]

piersonsmuppet said:

The CS rules were written well after the Fight Again rules (original 9E advanced rule), so I think RAW and RAI match (especially with every 9E codex losing fight twice on death [GSC?]).

Maybe. Crowe has this:

Heroic Sacrifice: If this model is destroyed in the Fight phase, do not remove this model from play - it can fight after the attacking model’s unit has finished making attacks. If you are using this ability, after resolving this model’s attacks, it is then removed.

Others have wording along the lines of:

Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase, when a GREY KNIGHTS CHARACTER model (excluding CASTELLAN CROWE) from your army that has not already been selected to fight this phase is destroyed.

Note it explicitly says 'has not already been selected to fight', unlike Crowe and Death Surge.

RAW, it's...iffy I guess? Note the restriction on fighting is:

No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase.

Where as death surge is the model. Does this matter? Maybe? I think you can make a reasonable argument though, and the fact that it's still explicitly prevented by most strats (and not in a manner that's them just leaving it out in later books) and not for others gives a strong indication for RAI though.

Ultimately it's...a very poor ruling regardless, because wow the wording.

beetlejuice said:

Bonus question: stacking death surge and animated by the hive mind. Allowed/not allowed? Can you choose the order?

This is also a bit tricky, but the answer is probably allowed: it depends on if you take death throes as a timing or an instruction (I, and basically everyone I've talked to about this, including judges whose opinion I respect far more than LVO, think just timing, but I don't think it's clear enough to be definite on). i.e. You use the strat when you're reduced to 0 wounds, don't do anything, use death surge, fight, go to remove the model and then do the MWs, as that's the timing for doing the damage for death throes.


There's a thread around on here somewhere with a fair bit of discussion about this, death frenzy and lash whips (though not death surge, since that didn't exist at that point).

[TheDeepestShadow]

Jan 25, 2022 10:06:06 GMT tylertt said:

One other weird LVO ruling..

I haven't had a chance to read it, but the LVO FAQ supposedly prevents the Harridan from deploying on some maps I heard. Which is weird as everywhere else I've seen this topic it allows it to delopy with wings overhanging deployment zone but not the side of the table (battlefield edge).

SaltyJohn explained it in the LVO Judge PSA video that was put out yesterday. The overhanging rule is a change that was only in the core rulebook and not in the GT pack, hence their ruling. I don't necessarily agree with it but it does make enough sense to justify the ruling.

[tylertt]

Ahh, thanks guys. I was curious as to their logic for it. Semi good thing is Harridan should be able to fit in all deployments legally, but all comes down to terrain placement unfortunately.