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Post by kazetanade on Jan 6, 2022 4:41:54 GMT
Single shot, on a T7 12W 3+ no defense chassis, unless they make more changes.
Hits on a 4+ naturally iirc, with a +1 from the commander tank character. So 3+ to hit and 2+ or 3+ to wound. Might have rerolls, but more likely not to have, or just rr1s.
And when the shot whiffs, you cry.
I get the same issues with the Destroyers Heavy Destroyer shot, which you can max to hit rerolls and wound rerolls, and when it miss you just get frustration.
Also, if terrain is heavy, I don't think that railgun is going to get to see anything. It just means Kaiju can't be played, just like magnus and morty. It isn't a big deal for actually competitive lists, although I have to admit it might feel oppressive in casual games when you're bringing only 1 or 2 MCs.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 6, 2022 9:50:34 GMT
At the top bracket, the hammerhead hits on 3s. If marker lights remain the same, you're up to hitting on 2s wounding tyrants on 2s. Plus the community article confirmed the hammerhead will come with equipment for a free reroll of your hit roll. Even if you assume hitting on 3s with a reroll and wounding on 2s, you're wounding a hive tyrant 74% of the time for a guaranteed 10 damage.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 6, 2022 10:57:26 GMT
Same with terrain - if it can't see, it can't shoot, and boards have a lot of Obscurring. Again, 3 of these on the board just means (for us) that CS is not going to be competitive, assuming 3 of them become a thing and gets anywhere in competitive tables. It really just reinforces our Leviathan mob play.
Shadowsword has been a thing for a long time, and quite frankly, there are nearly as many AT which are just as if not scarier than the Rail, even without ignore invul. Its a scary profile in a world where people are kitting our to break through invuls on elites already in the first place.
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Post by kopy on Jan 6, 2022 20:05:12 GMT
Shadowsword has been a thing for a long time, and quite frankly, there are nearly as many AT which are just as if not scarier than the Rail, even without ignore invul. Its a scary profile in a world where people are kitting our to break through invuls on elites already in the first place. A Shadowsword is a huge model (can rarely be hidden) and is a LOW (extra detachment). Also, it averages 6 shots with 3 hits at 7 damages (which is REALLY swingy at 2d6). Most importantly, it doesn't ignore invulns. And costs 430+ points. It's no wonder it doesn't get played, because the really important stuff has invulnerable saves which don't care about Shadowswords. Oh and if you wound it might only be for 2 damage per hit. The Railgun circumvents the problem of invulnerable saves and low damage, for (possibly, likely) less than half the points. in the end its points cost will determine if it sees play. Also, which other scarier AT do you mean? |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 6, 2022 20:24:46 GMT
The shadowsword is an old single model with low number of shots but high damage potential and reasonably scary damage averages - you took it vs big guys like Mortarion and Magnus, because you punch a bullet through and you degrade *about the same as a Railgun would*, hence the comparison. Its not viable now because its too easy to kill even if you can hide it, and others do the same damage at much more efficient point costs.
Retributors, Eradicators, multi melta attack bikes, Dark Lances, Cognis Lascannon carriers, Wazbom Blastajets, are all reasonably common occurances that are easier to hide, get into range as easily, and output similar levels of damage, if not higher. If your list was ready to take those on, it's ready to take on a Railgun or two.
As for costs, it'll depend a lot yes on what's the opportunity cost for playing them. If it's in the expect range of 250 a tank, I'm kinda all for it - but with its easy MW mechanic, which is usually overpriced, we're probably looking at Repulsor cost levels, which is straddling the line of "usable" and "too expensive to die".
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Post by yoritomo on Jan 7, 2022 2:53:20 GMT
I think you guys are freaking out over nothing.
Is the railgun a big, scary gun? Yeah, it is. Does it help Tau win games? No, it does not.
Let's think about the Tau for a second. They are not a top tier army. Why is that? Is it because they have trouble killing things? No, they kill things just fine. Tau are in trouble in the current edition because they can't defend an objective in close combat.
The bottom line is that as good as the new railgun is, it doesn't really help them with their problem. The new railgun rules could read "remove any model on a roll of 2+ on 3d6" and Tau would still be a bottom tier army. Until GW addresses the fundamental issues with Tau they will not be good.
I know some of you won't believe me, so let's look at some numbers.
Hammerheads are what, 150-170 points? (I don't have my books on me right now). That's around 500 points if the cost for the railgun doesn't go up. You're spending around a quarter of your points for three shots mounted on a relatively fragile platform. That's enough to kill one warrior squad a turn. Or if you're running gaunts/stealers that's 12 gaunts/stealers per turn. That's not enough to shoot me off of an objective, and you've spent almost 25% of a 2,000 point army on these railguns.
We should also talk about submunitions as well. This has moved to a strategem, so it can only be used once a turn. And doesn't it max out at 8 mortal wounds? That means that it would take 4 turns and 4 command points to wipe out a full guant squad. Is that really a good weapon against our infantry?
When I see the new railgun rules I think that the Tau players are going to have fun shooting things and then wonder why they lost the game.
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Post by No One on Jan 7, 2022 3:02:42 GMT
I think there's a very real chance that Tau are good by dint of just trying to leafblower you off the table T1/2 like AdMech could try to. But also (hopefully) less mobility than AdMech, so even if the firepower is there it doesn't happen. But yeah, railgun...doesn't really help with that: even if it's costed low enough to be good against MCs, it's too niche. Either their battlesuits etc can do so against most stuff, including MCs, or they can't and Tau suck. Hammerheads are what, 150-170 points? 156 min at the moment: which, well I hope it goes up in pts, because that seems undercosted on rate and (even if the overall army isn't good) very gatekeeper to certain match ups. But, uhh, not that undercosted. |
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Post by purestrain on Jan 7, 2022 14:41:42 GMT
I think you guys are freaking out over nothing. Is the railgun a big, scary gun? Yeah, it is. Does it help Tau win games? No, it does not. Let's think about the Tau for a second. They are not a top tier army. Why is that? Is it because they have trouble killing things? No, they kill things just fine. Tau are in trouble in the current edition because they can't defend an objective in close combat. The bottom line is that as good as the new railgun is, it doesn't really help them with their problem. The new railgun rules could read "remove any model on a roll of 2+ on 3d6" and Tau would still be a bottom tier army. Until GW addresses the fundamental issues with Tau they will not be good. I know some of you won't believe me, so let's look at some numbers. Hammerheads are what, 150-170 points? (I don't have my books on me right now). That's around 500 points if the cost for the railgun doesn't go up. You're spending around a quarter of your points for three shots mounted on a relatively fragile platform. That's enough to kill one warrior squad a turn. Or if you're running gaunts/stealers that's 12 gaunts/stealers per turn. That's not enough to shoot me off of an objective, and you've spent almost 25% of a 2,000 point army on these railguns. We should also talk about submunitions as well. This has moved to a strategem, so it can only be used once a turn. And doesn't it max out at 8 mortal wounds? That means that it would take 4 turns and 4 command points to wipe out a full guant squad. Is that really a good weapon against our infantry? When I see the new railgun rules I think that the Tau players are going to have fun shooting things and then wonder why they lost the game. Brings swarmy sling anything, T1 swarmlord dies, uh oh. Three railguns, one using submunitions and two others still does 16 kills on a squad, thats not adding in the drones shooting or anything close to an HK 72" range on main gun, 24-36 on everything else says they get two full turns of shooting at you before you even get close. 2 Will bracket or flat kill anything monster than swarmy slings using FTGG (if they still have it). |
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Post by yoritomo on Jan 7, 2022 21:11:32 GMT
I think there's a very real chance that Tau are good by dint of just trying to leafblower you off the table T1/2 like AdMech could try to. I agree with this statement. I think with what we currently know this is the Tau's only viable path to being relevant in the current meta. Hopefully Tau get something in their new codex that can defend an objective or every game is going to feel like playing gaunt carpet against Tau; you're going to lose a lot of models, but you win in the end. Purestrain, you are correct that it will be very difficult for us to cross that 72" gap to deal with a hammerhead. My question to you is do we really need to deal with that hammerhead? Three of them only kill 12 guants a turn, 16 if they spend the command point on submunitions. If my opponent is going to spend a quarter of his points or more so he can kill half a gaunt squad a turn then I will let him do that all day long. It will be hard to keep monsters on the table, but I don't think we really need monsters against Tau. Heck, if I get one turn of shooting at a battle suit with my exocrine I think I'm in pretty good shape to win. |
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Post by infornography on Jan 8, 2022 0:32:56 GMT
I don't like that a single new unit is looking like it will invalidate most take all comer lists that rely heavily on tanks and monsters. Much less the entirety of the Knights codex.
I find it possible, maybe even likely, that Tau won't win a tremendous number of games, but I find it unlikely that skipping on the Hammerhead will be common unless they are extremely costly or there is somehow something even scarier in the codex. In other words, I think not taking Hammerheads will result in an even worse win/loss ratio because it is capable of dealing with all large things on the board. They could have the entire rest of the list focus on anti-infantry and anti-elite and let the hammerheads deal with the tanks and monsters. Assuming those hammerheads live long enough, they are not completely ineffectual against elites as well.
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Post by niiai on Jan 8, 2022 21:06:24 GMT
You know, I think GSC will be totally fine with the new Tau cannon. Some builds don't even run vehicles. *happy parrot noises*
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Post by bigpig on Jan 13, 2022 10:04:39 GMT
From a design standpoint it is good to see singel shot guns actually have some traction. And the time it saves on dice rolling is great. Completely disagree. Anything that completely invalidates taking a list archetype from multi round competitive play is bad for the overall health of the game. Yes, points cost, etc... but unless it clocks in at a ridiculously high amount (which it won't), taking three...... plus the monstrosity of the stormsurge based on some leaks I've heard, basically shuts down taking big things that survive based on tanking with innvuls. For a one off game with friends, sure.... roll dice and maybe luck maybe not. ..but increasing rock paper scissors is never a good thing in this game |
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Post by niiai on Jan 13, 2022 11:28:42 GMT
I am not so shure about that. It depends on design philosophy. Just one clear example is the game rock, paper, scissors would be quite bad without that mechanic. Starcraft 2 runs a very similar mechanical skeleton, although you can change in real time what you choose. (In addition to economical build/expand tension.)
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 13, 2022 14:49:16 GMT
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Post by zimko on Jan 13, 2022 15:03:18 GMT
In other, other news... technically the guns on a Barbed Hierodule can one shot a Knight. Doesn't mean it will.
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