Army of Renown: Crusher Stampede in next WD

[No One]

bolk said:

Following the chart I linked to;
The Harpy charges in;

-The enemy unit has a Fight First ability;
the unit goes to Fight Normal step.

-The enemy unit do not have a Fight First ability;
the unit goes to Fight Last step.

Yes, this bit is not under any debate whatsoever. Unfortunately, GW didn't 100% unambiguously clarify how interrupt interacts with all of this. If you're fight first or fight normal you can interrupt, again unquestionable. They don't actually say that if you're fight last you can't: while there could definitely be a strong implication there, and all the other wording seems to equate the different forms of fight last, the only explicit mention as to what can't interrupt is to the rare rule, which is specifically talking about eligibility and the whole 'not eligible' wording when it talks about interrupt, not just fight last.

To quote a judge whose opinion I respect talking about another judge whose opinion I respect:

To my extreme frustration, he is technically correct that it is still debatable. GW, in their infinite ineptitude, came so close to finally clearing it up in the last big FAQ+designer's commentary, but didn't quite make it, again. I believe, along with you and 99% of players, that the designer's commentary makes their intention abundantly clear - no interrupting with any form of fight last. But the actual rules are very poorly written to support that intention, and the designer's commentary isn't 100% unambiguous either <sigh>.

I'm not sure either way (and am not trying to argue that it is either way, just that I agree it's not totally clear), but the only place I've played recently says they're different, so...yes, you should probably check with TO if you don't want to make an assumption and get wrecked by that assumption.

[vortexdr]

Hmm how does this interact with the Tervigon. The rules state you cant take any models 2 wounds or less.... It doesn't mention fielding them?

So for example can i simply make say a 1800 point list with a Tervigon. Then once the game starts i can create Termagaunts?

I'm not really taking them in that case, I'm simply creating them from the reinforcement pool no? Same with same Spore mines...

Why didn't they use the word field and there would be no grey area....

[xtztxtxz]

Dec 17, 2021 14:44:13 GMT vortexdr said:

Hmm how does this interact with the Tervigon. The rules state you cant take any models 2 wounds or less.... It doesn't mention fielding them?

So for example can i simply make say a 1800 point list with a Tervigon. Then once the game starts i can create Termagaunts?

I'm not really taking them in that case, I'm simply creating them from the reinforcement pool no? Same with same Spore mines...

Why didn't they use the word field and there would be no grey area....

You can still spawn Termagants with this if you set aside reinforcement points; the FAQ is explicit that army composition is only checked once at the start of the game.

However units spawned during the game don't benefit from detachment abilities, so those termagants wouldn't get Objective Secured.

[vortexdr]

Dec 17, 2021 14:50:43 GMT xtztxtxz said:

Dec 17, 2021 14:44:13 GMT vortexdr said:

Hmm how does this interact with the Tervigon. The rules state you cant take any models 2 wounds or less.... It doesn't mention fielding them?

So for example can i simply make say a 1800 point list with a Tervigon. Then once the game starts i can create Termagaunts?

I'm not really taking them in that case, I'm simply creating them from the reinforcement pool no? Same with same Spore mines...

Why didn't they use the word field and there would be no grey area....

You can still spawn Termagants with this if you set aside reinforcement points; the FAQ is explicit that army composition is only checked once at the start of the game.

However units spawned during the game don't benefit from detachment abilities, so those termagants wouldn't get Objective Secured.

Thats helpful thanks, i assume you refer to this: ‘IF EVERY UNIT IN YOUR ARMY’ RULES?

Do spawned Termagaunts count as a Hive Fleet? So for example can i give them the strat Hive Mind Imperative to give them op sec?

That aside, the shenanigans of giving a 18 wound dimi ob sec sounds crazy. Rules state wound count is used as amount of models. Now way someone is gonna toss anywhere close to 18 ob sec units on anything. Or a blob of 3 carnifexes, 24 obsec models if all three bases touch the objective.

[Bohxim]

That carnifex one wouldn't count because once deployed, they're counted as individual unit per model so that'd be 8 obsec bodies though

[No One]

Of course, once you put a single obsec body on there you either have the objective or you just go back to total model count.

[vortexdr]

Dec 17, 2021 15:14:27 GMT Bohxim said:

That carnifex one wouldn't count because once deployed, they're counted as individual unit per model so that'd be 8 obsec bodies though

Ahh (please do not swear), i havent played since 7th and just got back into 9th and back then we could take units of Dakkafexes...I was so looking forward to running a blob of three, with 5++, 5+++ (catalyst) -1 dmg, -1 to hit with 72 str 6 shots and then tossing Relentless Flurry on the unit

Awww hopes dashed...

[purestrain]

Dec 17, 2021 15:35:35 GMT vortexdr said:

Dec 17, 2021 15:14:27 GMT Bohxim said:

That carnifex one wouldn't count because once deployed, they're counted as individual unit per model so that'd be 8 obsec bodies though

Ahh (please do not swear), i havent played since 7th and just got back into 9th and back then we could take units of Dakkafexes...I was so looking forward to running a blob of three, with 5++, 5+++ (catalyst) -1 dmg, -1 to hit with 72 str 6 shots and then tossing Relentless Flurry on the unit

Awww hopes dashed...

The rules for Obsec are still on your side, you need only ONE model with obsec in order to count as it being there.

Quote from the rules

"Some units have an ability called Objective Secured. A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of that objective marker. If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal."

[bolk]

Dec 17, 2021 11:45:55 GMT No One said:

bolk said:

Following the chart I linked to;
The Harpy charges in;

-The enemy unit has a Fight First ability;
the unit goes to Fight Normal step.

-The enemy unit do not have a Fight First ability;
the unit goes to Fight Last step.

Yes, this bit is not under any debate whatsoever. Unfortunately, GW didn't 100% unambiguously clarify how interrupt interacts with all of this. If you're fight first or fight normal you can interrupt, again unquestionable. They don't actually say that if you're fight last you can't: while there could definitely be a strong implication there, and all the other wording seems to equate the different forms of fight last, the only explicit mention as to what can't interrupt is to the rare rule, which is specifically talking about eligibility and the whole 'not eligible' wording when it talks about interrupt, not just fight last.

To quote a judge whose opinion I respect talking about another judge whose opinion I respect:

To my extreme frustration, he is technically correct that it is still debatable. GW, in their infinite ineptitude, came so close to finally clearing it up in the last big FAQ+designer's commentary, but didn't quite make it, again. I believe, along with you and 99% of players, that the designer's commentary makes their intention abundantly clear - no interrupting with any form of fight last. But the actual rules are very poorly written to support that intention, and the designer's commentary isn't 100% unambiguous either <sigh>.

I'm not sure either way (and am not trying to argue that it is either way, just that I agree it's not totally clear), but the only place I've played recently says they're different, so...yes, you should probably check with TO if you don't want to make an assumption and get wrecked by that assumption.

Unless I completely misunderstand what you mean here, they do explain the use of Counter-offensive;

"The only other thing the rare rule does is clarify which units are
eligible to fight, and so can make use of the Counter-offensive
Stratagem (which lets a unit ‘fight next’). In practice, using the
above terms, you can select any ‘fights first’ or ‘fights normally’
unit for this Stratagem."

Then in the example below;

"There is only one ‘fights last’ unit, the Skorpekh Destroyers,
and the Necron player can now fight with them (assuming they
are still alive). This is also the only unit in this example that the
Necron player cannot use the Counter-offensive Stratagem on in
order to make them ‘fight next`."

[Bohxim]

Dec 17, 2021 15:35:35 GMT vortexdr said:

Dec 17, 2021 15:14:27 GMT Bohxim said:

That carnifex one wouldn't count because once deployed, they're counted as individual unit per model so that'd be 8 obsec bodies though

Ahh (please do not swear), i havent played since 7th and just got back into 9th and back then we could take units of Dakkafexes...I was so looking forward to running a blob of three, with 5++, 5+++ (catalyst) -1 dmg, -1 to hit with 72 str 6 shots and then tossing Relentless Flurry on the unit

Awww hopes dashed...

I doubt many other armies would have more than 8 obsec models for what you're competing for, regularly at least. I can only think of nids and orks and mmaaaayyyybbbeee necrons. But I don't play very much so I'm not that sure

[piersonsmuppet]

Dec 17, 2021 11:45:55 GMT No One said:

Yes, this bit is not under any debate whatsoever. Unfortunately, GW didn't 100% unambiguously clarify how interrupt interacts with all of this.

For reference from Always Fight First/Last:

Note that the Counter-offensive Stratagem requires you to select a unit that is eligible to fight. This means that if a unit is under the effects of a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so, then unless that unit is also under the effects of a rule that lets it fight first, you will not be able to select that unit to use the Counter-offensive Stratagem.

[trashcan01]

Dec 17, 2021 14:44:13 GMT vortexdr said:

Hmm how does this interact with the Tervigon. The rules state you cant take any models 2 wounds or less.... It doesn't mention fielding them?

So for example can i simply make say a 1800 point list with a Tervigon. Then once the game starts i can create Termagaunts?

I'm not really taking them in that case, I'm simply creating them from the reinforcement pool no? Same with same Spore mines...

Why didn't they use the word field and there would be no grey area....

Yes, we are aware it's probably a case of wrong wording.
Yes, we are aware Crusher Stampede wasn't meant for Gaunt spam lists.
Yes, if you leave out the points you will have 5++ units of Gaunts.
If it smells and tastes like cheese, it very likely is cheese.

If you want to go that way, I guess the rules are not stopping you.
Personally, I'd never field a list like that. The eye rolling I'd get from my mates would mess up with orbital pattern of our planet.

[No One]

trashcan01 said:

Yes, if you leave out the points you will have 5++ units of Gaunts.

No, you won't: they're not in your army for the purposes of these rules, that's why you can bring them. But conversely they don't get any benefits, don't get the crusher keyword, don't get obsec etc. It's taking a bad unit to do something that doesn't really help.

If it smells and tastes like cheese, it very likely is cheese.

It's not, it's a terv. Like, you're taking an MC army. How is taking an MC that births non-MCs cheese?

[Hive Bahamut]

Unless you mean like a ripe blue cheese or some sort of weird plant cheese, I don't think the words Tervigon and powerful belong together.

In fact I saw them staple a wicked buff on them and still haven't seen one. Reroll 1 and 2?!

What is not good for 200 Alex?

[Kitane]

I am perfectly fine with the gaunts being spawned without 5++ and the access to Transhuman for the balance reason, though I still think the whole concept of wound resistance makes far more sense in Tyranid bioforms than in Space Marines.

But it's the same restriction that can intervene with Spore mines, and I' like to see what kind of sad sack of doritos would be complaining about my Harpy spawning a spore mine or two on a missed bombing run.

Our ammo lives. Deal with it.