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Post by kazetanade on Sept 12, 2021 9:12:53 GMT
Tyrannofex aren’t bad, I use one all the time. They are just better in Leviathan or Jorm which are not as popular as Kraken/Kronos. The only reason they are unpopular, imo, is they lack the “remain standing after moving”, so Exo overshadows it in competitive play. Tyrannofex can still be quite worth taking with the auto-hit acid if your local tables or opponents have lots of -1 to-hit, and is my reason for bringing it. Maleceptor is decent, and it is usually taken to protect Hierodules and Warriors. Maleceptor excels at protecting T4 &T8 which want to be in mid board. So, gaunts don’t benefit quite as much (high volume S5 AP0 fire will rip through them), and Exo can get left behind as soon as T1. However you will still need an HQ for the Kronos unit so the Maleceptor’s price is on top of the Neuro and not in place of. Ofcourse the HQ tax - silly me forgot that. The usual setup for Kronos is a minimum sized patrol for the HG and Exo and the rest usually goes to Behemot for close combat stomping. So the Maleceptor only has it’s place if you invest more in Kronos and less in other fleet or go pure. Neuro is a point saver and easier to keep alive. I simply like the idea behind the Maleceptor and it’s tricks. What you said about Gants getting blown off the table is true for S5 but if they are to be under S4 fire the -1 to str can be huge. Same goes for any situation when the opponent directs massed shooting at tougher models to wound via volume of shots - for example bolters targetting T6 and T7 bugs halve the damage if the Ence Diff is in play. Thanks for the imput - I’m impressed by the forum users. The answers are very helpful and detailed. This is a really nice place to be As an additional note - Encaphallic Diffusion works cross fleet, meaning a Maleceptor in a standard Kraken/Kronos fleet mix can benefit both fleets at the same time. It just doesnt drop synapse for the other fleet. I have personally experimented with Malanthrope/Maleceptor builds a fair bit in end of 8th and am quite impressed with their performance for guaranteeing T1 and T2 survival for Gaunts and Zoanthropes in durability focused strategies - like someone else has rightly mentioned, they benefit T8 and T4 the most, as these are the base T where the respective weapons interact the most. Anti infantry: S3, S4, S5, S6. S3 are generally light infantry fire, akin to what you see on guardsmen and GSC - they're usually used in large numbers to try and plink wounds, but at S2 vs S4, this is basically a nonfactor. S4 is the standard anti-infantry profile, and moving to from 4+ to wound, to 5+ to wound, is the 2nd largest "wound impact" in the game - it looks like 16% less, but it is in effect much more. S5 usually are not in super high volume unless you're very specific armies - Punisher Gat Cannons, or specific Flier guns, Tau, etc. Their volumes are generally limited as is, so going to a 4+ usually makes their painful damage bearable. S6 doesnt need to be talked about - although it impacts T3, to me this impact is nearly negligible. On the anti-tank side, the most common profiles are S8 and S9 - S8 is in fact nearly a staple for multiple factions, as melta/fusion/dark lance take the forefront. Low volume, and going to 4+ to 5+ to wound, add together for very high impact. Biovores are just out of favour due to meta shifts to FLY - the more FLY is in the game, the less useful they are, and Biovores are a full 10 man Term squad, and you can do a fair bit of scoring or denial with that 10 man. Opportunity cost vs benefit doesnt add up. Raveners I think are ok - they're better since they have 4+ armor now, so they're at least on par with Warriors, and 12" movement mostly unimpeded is a big deal. They just dont jive into the current meta builds because 1: Genestealers move as fast, have less problems with morale, have better output for cost, and are only marginally squishier per wound; and 2: Lictors cover the deepstriking objective cover part, at a much cheaper cost. 3: they have next to no strategem or rules support of their own, and other options in the codex make use of our limited strategem support better.
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Post by purestrain on Sept 12, 2021 12:19:44 GMT
Ofcourse the HQ tax - silly me forgot that. The usual setup for Kronos is a minimum sized patrol for the HG and Exo and the rest usually goes to Behemot for close combat stomping. So the Maleceptor only has it’s place if you invest more in Kronos and less in other fleet or go pure. Neuro is a point saver and easier to keep alive. I simply like the idea behind the Maleceptor and it’s tricks. What you said about Gants getting blown off the table is true for S5 but if they are to be under S4 fire the -1 to str can be huge. Same goes for any situation when the opponent directs massed shooting at tougher models to wound via volume of shots - for example bolters targetting T6 and T7 bugs halve the damage if the Ence Diff is in play. Thanks for the imput - I’m impressed by the forum users. The answers are very helpful and detailed. This is a really nice place to be As an additional note - Encaphallic Diffusion works cross fleet, meaning a Maleceptor in a standard Kraken/Kronos fleet mix can benefit both fleets at the same time. It just doesnt drop synapse for the other fleet. I have personally experimented with Malanthrope/Maleceptor builds a fair bit in end of 8th and am quite impressed with their performance for guaranteeing T1 and T2 survival for Gaunts and Zoanthropes in durability focused strategies - like someone else has rightly mentioned, they benefit T8 and T4 the most, as these are the base T where the respective weapons interact the most. Anti infantry: S3, S4, S5, S6. S3 are generally light infantry fire, akin to what you see on guardsmen and GSC - they're usually used in large numbers to try and plink wounds, but at S2 vs S4, this is basically a nonfactor. S4 is the standard anti-infantry profile, and moving to from 4+ to wound, to 5+ to wound, is the 2nd largest "wound impact" in the game - it looks like 16% less, but it is in effect much more. S5 usually are not in super high volume unless you're very specific armies - Punisher Gat Cannons, or specific Flier guns, Tau, etc. Their volumes are generally limited as is, so going to a 4+ usually makes their painful damage bearable. S6 doesnt need to be talked about - although it impacts T3, to me this impact is nearly negligible. On the anti-tank side, the most common profiles are S8 and S9 - S8 is in fact nearly a staple for multiple factions, as melta/fusion/dark lance take the forefront. Low volume, and going to 4+ to 5+ to wound, add together for very high impact. Biovores are just out of favour due to meta shifts to FLY - the more FLY is in the game, the less useful they are, and Biovores are a full 10 man Term squad, and you can do a fair bit of scoring or denial with that 10 man. Opportunity cost vs benefit doesnt add up. Raveners I think are ok - they're better since they have 4+ armor now, so they're at least on par with Warriors, and 12" movement mostly unimpeded is a big deal. They just dont jive into the current meta builds because 1: Genestealers move as fast, have less problems with morale, have better output for cost, and are only marginally squishier per wound; and 2: Lictors cover the deepstriking objective cover part, at a much cheaper cost. 3: they have next to no strategem or rules support of their own, and other options in the codex make use of our limited strategem support better. Ravenor have 5+ saves, unless I missed something along the way.
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 12, 2021 12:44:24 GMT
I thought they got upgraded to 4+ in 9th edition - I remember looking at their comparisons with warriors and it was a lot more favourable to them, even if it still isnt anywhere near as good as warriors.
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Post by elkon on Sept 12, 2021 13:30:59 GMT
Not to my knowledge.
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Post by No One on Sept 12, 2021 13:34:12 GMT
You might be thinking shrikes, when they existed? They went to 4+ in 8th. Ravs are still 5+.
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Post by purestrain on Sept 12, 2021 14:01:01 GMT
You might be thinking shrikes, when they existed? They went to 4+ in 8th. Ravs are still 5+. For like 9 minutes, they were so good. Index shrikes had 12" flesh hooks because they dont check things XD Double bonswords and shoot into melee from DS range? I loved it.
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Sept 12, 2021 15:45:35 GMT
A similar comparison with the t-fex, you get av 14 hits at a worse profile, at 16" with no movement. Even with a hit neg, exo is still at ~12 hits, with a better profile. It's basically only -2 that really hurts the exo, otherwise t-fex can't compete without double tap, which is difficult to get against what you want. Exo only avgs ~9 hits (spending a CP to stand still and Symbio) with a -1 to-hit. Which is right at about Tfex avg when using a CP to reroll the hits after it has moved.
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Post by beetlejuice on Sept 12, 2021 15:55:43 GMT
A similar comparison with the t-fex, you get av 14 hits at a worse profile, at 16" with no movement. Even with a hit neg, exo is still at ~12 hits, with a better profile. It's basically only -2 that really hurts the exo, otherwise t-fex can't compete without double tap, which is difficult to get against what you want. Exo only avgs ~9 hits with a -1 to-hit. Which is right at about Tfex avg when using a CP to reroll the hits after it has moved. t fex acid spray is 18” too. I don’t think it’s too shabby. I park it so it can flame turn 2 whatever brawlers are flipping my objectives to soften them up since our counter charge is less than reliable compared to vanguard vets etc. Bit of a distraction carnifex too And don’t forget stinger salvoes!
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Sept 12, 2021 16:07:35 GMT
Exo only avgs ~9 hits with a -1 to-hit. Which is right at about Tfex avg when using a CP to reroll the hits after it has moved. t fex acid spray is 18” too. I don’t think it’s too shabby. I park it so it can flame turn 2 whatever brawlers are flipping my objectives to soften them up since our counter charge is less than reliable compared to vanguard vets etc. Bit of a distraction carnifex too Tfex stays reliable against T4/5 until death, and w/ Dermic is reliable against T6/7 until 3 wounds. Tough distraction to deal with when you can’t realistically reduce it’s effectiveness by tabling it.
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Post by asvic on Sept 13, 2021 6:40:10 GMT
Stop bullying raveners. Moving 24" and then doing actions is a nice niche. Think of them as first turn lictors.
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Post by windwalkerranger on Sept 13, 2021 11:03:21 GMT
I believe there is one more niche use for raveners. Of you ever want to deepstrike a unit of 4+ zoanthropes, you have 3 options. bring them with lictor, which costs 2 cp to reserve them and 1 cp to bring in, use the drop monster, or use a trio of raveners in a jormungandr for 1 cp total. but 35 pts cheaper than option 2.
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Post by purestrain on Sept 13, 2021 13:27:18 GMT
I believe there is one more niche use for raveners. Of you ever want to deepstrike a unit of 4+ zoanthropes, you have 3 options. bring them with lictor, which costs 2 cp to reserve them and 1 cp to bring in, use the drop monster, or use a trio of raveners in a jormungandr for 1 cp total. but 35 pts cheaper than option 2. Zoanthropes are hard enough to just advance and shoot at 24" range with smite, they need no protection.
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Sept 13, 2021 18:23:57 GMT
Stop bullying raveners. Moving 24" and then doing actions is a nice niche. Think of them as first turn lictors. Yes, but how often is that niche any better than 16” movement which can do actions and is ob-sec? I think it’s too rare to want to include without foreknowledge of what the Mission is in advance. Even then, in a tournament setting they may only be worth it in one of the 3+ games. I don’t think it’s worth including a niche unit where the niche isn’t applicable more often than not. That highlights Raveners unique situation in the codex imo. They have no role for which they have a distinct advantage over other units, besides the Jorm strat. However, Strategic Reserves mostly killed that bonus. I would normally group Sky Slashers here too, but they have a unique role in Levi (which is my main fleet used) and I like how they supercharge OOE & SL.
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Post by hymenopteran on Sept 13, 2021 19:04:18 GMT
I believe there is one more niche use for raveners. Of you ever want to deepstrike a unit of 4+ zoanthropes, you have 3 options. bring them with lictor, which costs 2 cp to reserve them and 1 cp to bring in, use the drop monster, or use a trio of raveners in a jormungandr for 1 cp total. but 35 pts cheaper than option 2. Isn't there an issue with flying units and Jorm tunnels?
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Post by zimko on Sept 13, 2021 19:08:10 GMT
I believe there is one more niche use for raveners. Of you ever want to deepstrike a unit of 4+ zoanthropes, you have 3 options. bring them with lictor, which costs 2 cp to reserve them and 1 cp to bring in, use the drop monster, or use a trio of raveners in a jormungandr for 1 cp total. but 35 pts cheaper than option 2. Isn't there an issue with flying units and Jorm tunnels? No. The only issue Fly units have with Jorm is the hive fleet trait.
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