|
Post by dkng on Sept 11, 2021 11:53:08 GMT
Hello, I’m new to the forum, haven’t really played the game yet but been a big fan of the game for years. I’ve always been a bug-person Zerg in StarCraft, Hive Mind in Stellaris and so on... So picking Tyranids as my WH army is an obvious choice. Before I buy any figures I wanted to check what’s hot and what is not at the time being. Of course I understand that for being competitive you have to make the best choices there are but I noticed that most of the lists are very similar to each other. That’s understandable - Swarmlord, Hive Guard, Exo - these are all easy choices for they are simply excellent in what they do. There are interesting variations added to this „core”. Some use Warriors, other go for Hierodules, Dimas or even Harridans. I’ve seen lists with Stealers, hordes of little bugs or some Zoans added. But I’ve basically never seen a list with any of the following: Carnifexes, Biovores, Raveners, Tyrranofexes, Crones and Harpies. My question to the experienced players is - can you please tell me why are those not used? Why are they so much sub-optimal? Are they somehow bad by themselves or it is a meta thing and they just dont fit in? Regards, Dkng
|
|
|
Post by beetlejuice on Sept 11, 2021 12:57:19 GMT
It’s mostly that they’re overpriced and lack durability and output for their points cost, especially when compared to 9th codexes. I think carnifex is a decent datasheet before you start looking at points and comparing it to volcon dreads, NDKs etc
I occassionaly use minimum raveners for easy engage/rod/screening purposes. Acid spray tyrannofex is ok to park between 2 objectives and just as area denial (gets deleted by admech and drukhari though). Rupture cannon is too unreliable with our lack of rerolls and low output imo.
|
|
|
Post by Bohxim on Sept 11, 2021 12:58:54 GMT
High five! I chose nids coz of zergs too! My army is mostly painted purple with gold carapace to look like zergs too keke.
To answer your questions broadly, for the costs, those don't bring enough killy or survive particularly well, on top of not being objective secure. I have 11-12 carnifexes and I haven't used them in over a year. Because the 2 times I've brought them (in 6 or 9s) they've done so little for the points invested in them. Raveners might be OK as a jorm taxi in certain cases but some think a trygon or lictor is sufficient depending on how you set them up in reserve.
|
|
|
Post by elkon on Sept 11, 2021 13:01:35 GMT
There are different reasons why these units aren't used, because they are very different units.
Carnifexes aren't used due to the fact that their stats are subpar at best for what they are used for. If they are used as a gun platform then they are rather expensive for their durability (130 points for the dual devourer platform with bs3+) and if they are used as a melee platform they don't have enough attacks (4) to actually be a melee fighter now that BS/WS modifiers no longer stack.
Biovores aren't used as Hive Guard are just better at killing what you need to, although some people do take biovores if they wish to use spore mines to disrupt enemy movement throughout the game. I think they would be chosen more if a) they were cheaper than 50pts per model, and b) it wasn't random chance whether you would hit and deal 0-d3 mortal wounds or spawn a spore mine (which is often far more useful than a couple of mortal wounds.)
Raveners suffer from the fact that they are faster, but more expensive and more fragile warriors who cannot do the damage that they are supposed to thanks to the fact that they are still using 8th edition weapons (not even the semi decent weapons that warriors get with AP 2 and bonuses but rather AP 1 at most) against 9th edition codices (not enough damage and AP per attack). It doesn't help that they seem to be leaning towards deepstike units but have no reliable way to succeed in a 9 inch charge without spending even more points on adrenal glands (+1 inch on charges and advances, turning a 9 inch charge into an 8 inch charge).
Tyrranofexes simply suffer from being overshadowed by exocrines. They are decent with acid spray or swingy with a rupture cannon (ignore the fleshborer hive. It is worthless). The T-fex's main issue is that it is ballistic skill 4+, compared to the Exocrine's 3+ when standing still, and it isn't even a trade off between mobility and accuracy as both the T-fex and Exo have the "shoot twice if they did not move this movement phase". This isn't helped by the fact that if you place the Exo into hive fleet Kronos you can use the "Every roll of 6 is an additional hit" spell and have the additional hits activate on 5's because of the Exocrines' "If this unit didn't move in the movement phase add 1 to the hit roll".
Crones just don't have the weapons and BS to be the anti-air fighters they are supposed to be for they points they are, especially without the "Aircraft" keyword.
Harpy's suffer from the same issue, except from the fact that they were useful in special occasions when they could charge the enemy turn one, tie them up, and then fall back turn two and shoot them if they survived. In 9th they can no longer do that (due to not being Aircraft), and they are too many points for an 'aircraft', especially without the -1 to hit that actual "Aircraft" have.
|
|
|
Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Sept 11, 2021 13:03:01 GMT
Edit: definitely got ninja'ed. That's what I get for taking 45 minutes to type a response. Haha.
Welcome to the hive and playing tyranids!
As a note, if you're not playing competitively you can make lists work with virtually any of our units. Playing competitively requires you to only bring the most optimized list certain choices get excluded.
Carnifexes: IMO, they're a bit over costed right now. Compare a shooting carnifex (about 140 points) to a space marine dreadnought (120 points base). In order for carnifex to do well, you need to bring a lot and probably give up points as they are monsters. Finally, there's a lot of multidamage running around that can seriously mess up a carnifex's day.
Biovores: Biovores can't really do much damage. Their primary purpose is to miss, generating spore mines that move block units, especially ones with large bases (aka knights). Knights aren't very popular right now and many units have fly, so biovores have somewhat fallen out of favor.
Raveners: Raveners lack a primary battle field role to fill that other units do not fill just as well or better. Want multi wound infantry that can hold objectives? Bring warriors: (synapse, obsec, tougher, and better shooting). Want something that can pop up and take an objective or grab points for engage or line breaker? Bring lichtors (cheaper and a smaller footprint so easier to deep strike).
Raveners can be useful as a taxi for the jormungandr strategem, but now you can just pay for strategic reserves and jormungandr has fallen out of favor as a hive fleet from what I've seen.
Tyranofexes: Tyranofex basically require that they stand still so they can shoot twice in order to do sizable damage. This runs into the issue that 9e really requires lots of line of sight blocking terrain. This means that the tfex often have to move, halving their output. Exocrine do suffer from having to move but have a strategem that lets them count as remaining stationary. This strategem allows them to move and hit on 3s and synergizes with the Kronos power (symbiostorm) for additional hits on a 5+.
Additionally, Tfex require specialized weapons: you're either going antitank or antiinfantry. Exocrine have a genetically good gun that can cut down elites very well (wounding on 3s at an AP-3). It can also wound ok against T8.
Tldr; exocrine give you game time and list building flexibility that Tfex do not. Exocrine also better synergize with strategems/powers.
Crones and Harpies: They have too wide of a profile to hide behind most line of sight blocking terrain and are only T6 with a 4+ save, so they're very squishy. Any weapons designed to kill marines (or even other infantry) will do well against them. Any weapons designed to kill custodes or light vehicles will do well against them. Any weapons designed to kill tanks will shred through them. So virtually every weapon in the game will do well against them. If you go first, they will be able to charge but will probably only be able to hit screens but do not have enough attacks to kill the screen. If you go second they're dead.
They're also 155 points which is drastically over priced.
Tldr; too expensive, not enough damage output, and die too quickly
|
|
|
Post by bolk on Sept 11, 2021 14:05:40 GMT
Of the ones you ask I've only used Carnifexes in 9th. I used them as Dakkafexes (2x Brainleech Devourers, Enhanced Senses, Adrenal Glands; 140ppm.) with the Morphic Sinews and Prey Sight custom hive fleet traits. Morphic Sinews allows them to advance and shoot with no -1 to hit penalty on the Devourers since they are Assault weapons, which makes Carnifexes quite mobile and somewhat worth the points. Prey Sight gives them +1 to hit in combat, which is there primarily for my melee monsters, but it helps the Carnifexes too.
I can see some use for Harpies with how they fixed Combat resolution steps with their Screech ability, but haven't tried it out yet. 155 points for something that dies so easily is steep, but they have good movement, and can dish out some Mortal Wounds.
|
|
|
Post by No One on Sept 11, 2021 14:14:18 GMT
The above two posts covered basically everything. One thing I'll add is that fexes are slow for melee, and their defence and output is lackluster regardless of config. without spending even more points on adrenal glands Ravs can't even take AG. Most of the stuff that'd really like AG...can't get it. They can still do that because they're not Aircraft. Well, not the 'shoot' bit, but that's the least of your concerns if you're jamming a harpy down your opponent's face T1. Aircraft literally can't tie anything up, everything can just...leave. Biovores: Biovores can't really do much damage. Their primary purpose is to miss, generating spore mines that move block units, especially ones with large bases (aka knights). Knights aren't very popular right now and many units have fly, so biovores have somewhat fallen out of favor. Even knights can just walk over them: they got buffed to be able to move over any non MC/vehicle.
|
|
|
Post by dkng on Sept 11, 2021 14:20:38 GMT
Wow guys! Thanks for quick and extensive feedback. Just one more question - what do you feel about a Kronos Maleceptor babysitting HGs and Exo and maybe an objective camping Gants or Warriors? I know it’s more pricy than a Neuro but at the same time is more durable (although cant be screened), gets +1 to cast to reliably manifest Symbiostorm and has the expensive but juicy Encephalic strat to cover those important units. Is it that the price tag is simply too high for them to be used often?
|
|
|
Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Sept 11, 2021 14:37:16 GMT
I think that the neuro is a better investment for a baby sitter. The lookout sir benefit is huge for survivability.
Maleceptors do well for reducing damage taken by your army due to the encephalitic diffusion strat.
|
|
|
Post by piersonsmuppet on Sept 11, 2021 14:46:09 GMT
Tyrannofex aren’t bad, I use one all the time. They are just better in Leviathan or Jorm which are not as popular as Kraken/Kronos. The only reason they are unpopular, imo, is they lack the “remain standing after moving”, so Exo overshadows it in competitive play. Tyrannofex can still be quite worth taking with the auto-hit acid if your local tables or opponents have lots of -1 to-hit, and is my reason for bringing it.
Maleceptor is decent, and it is usually taken to protect Hierodules and Warriors. Maleceptor excels at protecting T4 &T8 which want to be in mid board. So, gaunts don’t benefit quite as much (high volume S5 AP0 fire will rip through them), and Exo can get left behind as soon as T1. However you will still need an HQ for the Kronos unit so the Maleceptor’s price is on top of the Neuro and not in place of.
|
|
|
Post by dkng on Sept 11, 2021 16:45:32 GMT
Tyrannofex aren’t bad, I use one all the time. They are just better in Leviathan or Jorm which are not as popular as Kraken/Kronos. The only reason they are unpopular, imo, is they lack the “remain standing after moving”, so Exo overshadows it in competitive play. Tyrannofex can still be quite worth taking with the auto-hit acid if your local tables or opponents have lots of -1 to-hit, and is my reason for bringing it. Maleceptor is decent, and it is usually taken to protect Hierodules and Warriors. Maleceptor excels at protecting T4 &T8 which want to be in mid board. So, gaunts don’t benefit quite as much (high volume S5 AP0 fire will rip through them), and Exo can get left behind as soon as T1. However you will still need an HQ for the Kronos unit so the Maleceptor’s price is on top of the Neuro and not in place of. Ofcourse the HQ tax - silly me forgot that. The usual setup for Kronos is a minimum sized patrol for the HG and Exo and the rest usually goes to Behemot for close combat stomping. So the Maleceptor only has it’s place if you invest more in Kronos and less in other fleet or go pure. Neuro is a point saver and easier to keep alive. I simply like the idea behind the Maleceptor and it’s tricks. What you said about Gants getting blown off the table is true for S5 but if they are to be under S4 fire the -1 to str can be huge. Same goes for any situation when the opponent directs massed shooting at tougher models to wound via volume of shots - for example bolters targetting T6 and T7 bugs halve the damage if the Ence Diff is in play. Thanks for the imput - I’m impressed by the forum users. The answers are very helpful and detailed. This is a really nice place to be
|
|
|
Post by windwalkerranger on Sept 11, 2021 18:26:06 GMT
I have tested many of these units in friendlier matchups and I would say some of them has occasional potential. At least, "had" some potential but the drukhari codex deletes tyranids hard, and the units you listed suffer the most. The major problem is the dark lance and it's availability, it's very common to have 10+ dark lance shots coming your way. Each of these are on a very mobile platfrom, which look fragile on the outset but are actually quite survivable, especially against tyranids who lack exceptional anti-armor options. Anyway, d3+3 damage hurts monsters without invul saves badly, and even 5++ is questionable against such damage. Each carnifex is 2-darklance shots, so in theory and with only a slightly swing of the dice towards the drukhari, you can just lose 5 carnifexes per turn. Dark lance is... cheap, comes with redundancy, in bs3 platforms.
So I have tested maleceptor in combination with malanthrope to protect my scythed hioredule, tyrant, and swarmlord. The issue is that 10 shots that wound on 3+ and 10 shots that wound on 4+ is not good enough (6.66 vs 5), but the difference between 10 shots that wound on 4+ and that wound on 5+ is worth it (5 vs 3.33), but consider this, 3 wounds that you receive still deal 9+3d3 damage! Only t8 monsters with 1+ save or 5++ save AND fnp thrown in might stand against... which we could somewhat have with jormungandr schyted hioredules.
I like the stone-crusher carnifex with adaptive physiology "murderous size", but the question is why? Why spend one of your two physiologies on such a weak platform? It's always that same question. Why? Currently we are somewhat cornered and we don't get the luxury to play situationally good units. Codex feels overcosted compared to almost every non-marine codex.
|
|
|
Post by yoritomo on Sept 11, 2021 18:49:30 GMT
The thing you need to understand is that there are very few tyranid units that are actually bad. Our units "look bad" because people constantly compare them to the newer, sexier units. Our internal codex balance is quite good and in casual games the tyranid army does quite well.
Case in point, when the 8th edition codex dropped we ran the numbers and it turns out that point for point the carnifex (devilfes configuration), exocrine, and tyrannofex (acid spray configuration) have roughly the same damage output. What really sets them apart is what their preferred targets are. The carnifex excels at low armor targets (especially with 1 wound). Exocrines are good at high armor, 2 wound targets. Tyrannofexes are good at anything that's hard to hit.
We actually see this as the meta evolved. At the start of 8th edition aircraft were king because they were tough to interact with an the dominant list was the Bobby G aircraft bomb. In this meta everyone was using the tyrannofex because his auto hit ability was the best thing we had against aircraft. Once aircraft got nerfed the meta shifted to primus marines. At this point the exocrine became popular because of his increased Ap and range. This is where we are now. However, with the introduction of wound reduction and shooting into close combat I would expect the carnifex to make a comeback in the near future.
As for some of the other units:
Biovores: Biovore are good. They were a staple in tyranid lists when the 8th edition first dropped. They were written off after they received a point adjustment in the middle of 8th edition. Biovores remain viable, but because they do not deal damage like a traditional unit they are very hard to play properly.
Raveners: Raveners are just hard to come by. I don't think I've seen ravener models on the shelf of my local game store since 4th edition. I know you can get them online, but they fill roughly the same role as warriors or genestealer who are much easier to get ahold of and have objective secured to boot.
Harpy/Crone: The issue here is that they are not aircraft. This makes them feel like extra flyrants, and since you can 3 flyrants in a list (more if it isn't matched play) there really isn't a need for them.
|
|
|
Post by purestrain on Sept 11, 2021 19:53:56 GMT
Harpies and hive crones are garbage because one (crone) was a gimmick model from 7th and the harpy and crone share the same garbage profile (t6 4+) just begging to get wiped out by an auto cannon. t7 3+ they would work just fine.
|
|
|
Post by No One on Sept 12, 2021 3:27:28 GMT
Early 8th comparisons are...sort of whatever, because PA. Exo gets ~14 hits with symbio. Dakkafex gets ~16 base: it can get symbio as well, but considering 18" range vs 36", you're not getting Kronos and are sort of eh. Dakkafex is cheaper, but not by a massive amount, and is also less survivable. Considering there's basically nothing where you won't get value from either AP-3 and/or D2 over the dakkafex...exo wins. Also if you just want anti-infantry, just take devilgants. A similar comparison with the t-fex, you get av 14 hits at a worse profile, at 16" with no movement. Even with a hit neg, exo is still at ~12 hits, with a better profile. It's basically only -2 that really hurts the exo, otherwise t-fex can't compete without double tap, which is difficult to get against what you want. Biovores: Biovore are good. They were a staple in tyranid lists when the 8th edition first dropped. They were written off after they received a point adjustment in the middle of 8th edition. Biovores remain viable, but because they do not deal damage like a traditional unit they are very hard to play properly. Eh, I think meta shifts into 9th, as well as hit cap meaning they can't basically guaranteed miss also hurts them to the point they're just OK, and also difficult to play. Most things are infantry, many have Fly, vehicles (which are mainly what you want to block) aren't super common, and finally spores give min 9" of movement, albeit at the cost of the ability to charge, and with possibly still restricted shooting options. I've got one in my list for RoD/spore/shadows: between the spores and shadows, it sometimes does something, but some games it does absolutely nothing, and that's not usually because I don't have the spores, but just because the movement my opponent wants to make, I can't effectively block. And even if it is, that's another squad or 3 of gaunts.
|
|