GK Drago Bomb

[elkon]

So, I have a question about the Grey Knight's Drago bomb. The main points are that they teleport Drago, or something similar, outside of 12" of your units and spend a bunch of CP to make a really nasty mortal wounds AOE go off. One of these is a stratagem that lets the psyker in question roll 3d6 and discard the lowest for the spell. My question is, how does this work if I chuck Kronos's "The Deepest Shadow" onto the unit in question?

[beetlejuice]

Same issue existed in 8th without a clear FAQ I think.

It’s not roll 3d6, it’s: ” Until the end of the phase, each time a Psychic test is taken for that unit, roll one additional D6 and discard one of the dice.”

Kronos is: ” Your opponent can only roll a single dice
for the Psychic test.”

If the GK player uses attacker priority for simultaneous effects to decide that the deepest shadow strat goes off before psychic channeling the reasonable interpretation would be that the GK player rolls 2d6 and discards the lowest.

The GK would roll 3d6 and discard 1 for any additional casts that phase though since deepest shadow refers to the psychic test, ie singular

[hivefleetkerrigan]

There's been debate about this before. As I recall there are two camps:
1. The order matters. If they declare 3d6 and then declare 1d6, then the 1d6 takes priority. If they declare the 3d6 second, then the 3d6 takes priority.
2. If both are declared, assume it's then just back to 2d6. Aka, consider it a +1 and then a -1 on the number of d6s rolled.

[piersonsmuppet]

Deepest shadow says “only a single dice”, so I think that takes precedence no matter how many additional dice the model taking the test can roll. If it read “roll one less d6”, then they would cancel out.

Even taking into account that they interact, the GK stratagem takes place when the unit is selected to manifest and Deepest Shadow is on manifestation, so Deepest always resolves after GK.

So GK should roll a single die, and then discard it when Deepest Shadow is used.

[elkon]

Thank you guys for the help.

[bigbadbalou]

Both strat does seems to interact weirdly with teach other tough... maybe something you should clear with your opponent before the game begin if you think it could happen.

I don't have codex GK, but considering the rules as written, quoted by Beetlejuice... it seems to me like the GK strat just wouldn't work for that 1 psychic test.

I mean... Whenever the GK pop it's strat, that would give him normally +1 dice and remove 1 dice on all the following psychic test for that unit. That's simple. But "the deepest shadow" is not "remove 1 dice from 1 psychic test". It's "your opponent can only roll 1 dice for the psychic test" on a test that you would chose. Quite simple too. So whatever is the choice or the number of dice the GK would/could roll for the test, he can/must only roll 1 for it. I wouldn't go as far as saying that the GK would need to remove a dice after the roll, mainly because it's strat says "add 1 die AND remove one". Since he couldn't add one, I wouldn't remove one. But the test should be done on 1 dice whatever the case I think.

I see it as more fair like that too, partly because I tend to favor defense over offence when in conflict with 2 rules, but also because if you do it like this, then both stratagemes stays meaningfull. The tyranid one did his job (trying to stop 1 important psychic power) and the GK one can still be used for other psychic test if the unit can do more than 1 test. Ruled otherwise, it would seems like the GK have an unfair advantage because their stratagem literally would change the wording itself of the tyranid stratagem and make it kinda void (you know because, it tells you quite simply to do something, but because xyz it would do something else that is nowhere written in the strat (remove 1 dice instead of rolling only 1 dice)). While in the case of the GK strat, the wording would stay the same, it's just that it wouldn't work for that one test.

And of course, all of this would be completely different if the deepest shadow strat would have been to just remove 1 dice from the psychic test instead...

[beetlejuice]

Both can still apply. Only roll one die, but roll an extra and discard one. So roll 2, discard one. Both strats stay meaningful, the max result will be 6, but the GK player gets a little better chance to score 5-6 (and still be able to pass a low cost power, though easily denied).

There’s no need to start making RAI interpretations like +/-1 dice imho.

[piersonsmuppet]

Sept 7, 2021 17:14:57 GMT beetlejuice said:

Both can still apply. Only roll one die, but roll an extra and discard one. So roll 2, discard one. Both strats stay meaningful, the max result will be 6, but the GK player gets a little better chance to score 5-6 (and still be able to pass a low cost power, though easily denied).

There’s no need to start making RAI interpretations like +/-1 dice imho.

The stratagems resolve at different times, unit selected (GK) and when manifesting (DS), so they don’t really both apply (although GK would keep discard lowest…). If GK strat was also when manifesting (so only 1 power), I’d agree that the GK player could resolve priority in their favor to get 2d6 discard lowest.

[No One]

That's when you activate the strat. That's not when the effects of the strat happen.

[bigbadbalou]

Sept 7, 2021 17:14:57 GMT beetlejuice said:

Both can still apply. Only roll one die, but roll an extra and discard one. So roll 2, discard one. Both strats stay meaningful, the max result will be 6, but the GK player gets a little better chance to score 5-6 (and still be able to pass a low cost power, though easily denied).

There’s no need to start making RAI interpretations like +/-1 dice imho.

Yeah, I think it would be a good middle ground too. And would stay simple.

But that would still be really close to RAI interpretations, since the gray knights would still roll 2 dice instead of just one as stated in the deepest shadows strat, and would effectively change that strat from "only roll a single dice" to "roll 1 less dice" for the psychic test.

Although the test itself would still be taken on a total of 1 dice since you would remove the other one... so i guess that's a good middle ground if both players can't reach for an agreement.

I still think theoretically that the tyranid strat would be the one which need to be followed, especially since it seems like a hard cap for the number of dice instead of modifying the number of dice. But I can see it being ruled otherwise, if only to prevent a strat from cancelling the effect of an opponent's strat if it's not the purpose of said stratagem.

[No One]

I somehow can't find the previous thread of this. So, I get to redo that. Yay.

bigbadbalou said:

I still think theoretically that the tyranid strat would be the one which need to be followed, especially since it seems like a hard cap for the number of dice instead of modifying the number of dice.

Both need to be followed, which means you roll one dice, and an additional dice.

If they can't both be followed...it's not conclusive, because GW...apparently didn't think there'd be any other conflict, but:

Manifesting Priority
While manifesting a psychic power, you’ll occasionally find that two rules are in direct conflict and cannot both apply - for example, when one rule says that a psychic power cannot be denied and another rule says that a psychic power is denied (or resisted). When this happens, rules that say a psychic power cannot be denied take precedence over rules that say the psychic power is denied.

The first bit definitely applies. What actually happens...isn't, since it's not a straight cast/deny. But a hard lean to 'manifesting gets priority'. So they'd roll an additional and discard one, and if Shadows can't apply concurrently with that, that's 3d6 drop 1.

If it's sequencing, then it's GK turn and you roll one dice, then you roll the additional dice and discard.

Finally, if you disagree with all of those, most important rule roll off: which, if you're hard pushing 'both cannot apply', hey they can push 'my rule takes priority', see above. Basically, take the reasonable line of 2d6 drop 1.

[piersonsmuppet]

Sept 8, 2021 9:46:14 GMT No One said:

That's when you activate the strat. That's not when the effects of the strat happen.

Yes, though I just now noticed the “each time a psychic test is taken” is exactly the same as hit mod “each time an attack is made”, so I completely agree with the DP -> GK being possible and resulting in 2d6 drop the lowest.

However I think trying GK -> DP resolution does not negate DP. Essentially we have “can roll an additional dice” and “cannot roll more than a single dice”. Errata says cannot takes precedence, so GK get to roll 1 dice and discard lowest.

[No One]

piersonsmuppet said:

Errata says cannot takes precedence

Cannot be denied: I suppose that depends on whether it's because it says 'cannot', or whether the caster's rule takes priority. (Edit: Also shadows doesn't say 'cannot', just 'can only roll a single dice'). I was thinking latter, but I suppose former could be valid, so it goes back to 'most important rule' really. Or just compromise at 2d6 drop lowest .

[bigbadbalou]

The more I think about it, the more the "roll 2 discard 1" seems to make the most sense...

Initially I was going for the DP strat shouldn't be changed by another strat (hence, favoring the "hard cap" of DS). And that we should follow it as it is written. But I just realize that the stratagem are just that, things that changes the rules all the time!

So the more I think about it, and whatever the sequencing or anything else, there is nothing preventing a stratagem from changing a rule since it's what they do. So tyranid pops up DS, which change the rules from rolling 2 dice to rolling 1 dice. And then the the GK one goes to modify that and roll +1 dice and remove 1. The DS wasn't changed by the other strat, the rule that was first modified by DS is now also changed again by the GK strat. Both strat can be applied quite simply actually.