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Post by windwalkerranger on Aug 21, 2021 14:50:44 GMT
Hello hive.
I was wondering your thoughts or experiences using extended carapace + dynamic camouflage genestealers in a jormungandr detachment? I'm thinking a maxed out unit of these bad boys for 300 points. Might they make a good "to the last" candidate? I was thinking on supporting them with a broodlord with paroxysm, and a neurothroph with resonance barb and onslaught. The idea is to use them as a home obj keepers and counterchargers in a list which will force the opponent to come to my board edge somehow. Facing drukhari, wolves, and necrons in my online plays. Parox can be replaced with catalyst if against necrons.
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Post by zimko on Aug 21, 2021 16:12:02 GMT
Wait for the Octarius book. The Broodlord will be able to give them Light, Heavy and Dense Cover without needing to follow all the stipulations that come with Jorm.
But other than that, Extended Carapace would be a neat option if it didn't cost points. As it is, you're trading the ability to advance and charge AND points for a 4+ armor save. I don't think it's worth it. The cost on Extended Carapace alone pays for a Lictor.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 21, 2021 21:10:01 GMT
If you're playing primarily Jorm, no Swarmlord, I think it has game. Ignore Cover is increasingly rare. The issue is 2 fold:
1. It's a big points investment,nearly 400pts, for that single unit. It's not difficult to focus down with current age anti-infantry that are packing ap-1 and ap-2 base. For "last stand", will they actively soak enough damage? My experience so far with them is that they cannot, but with a Broodlord supporting them with this new buff AND catalyst, I think they will be extremely possible (and doesn't need Jorm to do it).
2. Genestealers trade poorly into EVERY melee unit from EVERY other codex. High T, invuls, and cheap effective performance for cost outstrip Genestealers along the whole way, leaving them scrapping the bottom barrel a lot when they clash. This USUALLY means that, as glass cannons, they HAVE to hit first otherwise the unit is toast and will never output enough to be close to relevant. EC GS do not have the speed to hit first when they need to, nor the tankiness like Necrons to work with their speed, and you will be sitting there waiting to take a punch that, in good likeliness, they can't take very well. Again, this could change drastically with the new Broodlord buff that adds a lot of durability to the unit in +1armor in both shooting and melee, a 5+++ via spell, and a -1 to hit via mid/long range anti infantry shooting. And Adaptation for ignore ap-1 and ap-2 I think genuinely make them a better tank candidate than Warriors, since you get damage, tank, and superior damage profile tanking in the same package.
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Post by No One on Aug 22, 2021 5:57:45 GMT
Again, this could change drastically with the new Broodlord buff that adds a lot of durability to the unit in +1armor in both shooting and melee Note you don't get the +1 sv in melee if you charge. Not actually sure how relevant this'd be, expect most non-dedicated melee bricks to die, and melee bricks to be putting to invul generally anyway...But is a consideration, especially with ER.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Aug 22, 2021 6:02:01 GMT
That is incorrect. You negate the opponents hard cover when you charge. You get the save (has never been relevant for 5-6+)
Protracted combat in heavy has both sides add +1.
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Post by No One on Aug 22, 2021 6:35:06 GMT
That is incorrect. You negate the opponents hard cover when you charge. Only on release, it was FAQed almost immediately:
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Post by windwalkerranger on Aug 22, 2021 15:28:41 GMT
If you're playing primarily Jorm, no Swarmlord, I think it has game. Ignore Cover is increasingly rare. The issue is 2 fold: 1. It's a big points investment,nearly 400pts, for that single unit. It's not difficult to focus down with current age anti-infantry that are packing ap-1 and ap-2 base. For "last stand", will they actively soak enough damage? My experience so far with them is that they cannot, but with a Broodlord supporting them with this new buff AND catalyst, I think they will be extremely possible (and doesn't need Jorm to do it). 2. Genestealers trade poorly into EVERY melee unit from EVERY other codex. High T, invuls, and cheap effective performance for cost outstrip Genestealers along the whole way, leaving them scrapping the bottom barrel a lot when they clash. This USUALLY means that, as glass cannons, they HAVE to hit first otherwise the unit is toast and will never output enough to be close to relevant. EC GS do not have the speed to hit first when they need to, nor the tankiness like Necrons to work with their speed, and you will be sitting there waiting to take a punch that, in good likeliness, they can't take very well. Again, this could change drastically with the new Broodlord buff that adds a lot of durability to the unit in +1armor in both shooting and melee, a 5+++ via spell, and a -1 to hit via mid/long range anti infantry shooting. And Adaptation for ignore ap-1 and ap-2 I think genuinely make them a better tank candidate than Warriors, since you get damage, tank, and superior damage profile tanking in the same package. The list is actually twofold. It's around 1250 points of Kronos shooting, mostly stationary, 2 units of 6 hive guard. The idea is to force the enemy to come to you and to use the stealers as a countercharge. The kronos part also includes 2 units of 9 warriors with deathspitters, 3 venom cannons, and lashwhip and bs. It's basically hide the hive guard and shoot with them 3 salvos each round, with minor support from venom cannons. Regarding your first point, there is some medium-range anti infantry but I wonder in other meta how common is long range, artillery-like infantry killers? And even then, how much ap does such weapons have? If the range is short, well then the threat range, despite being shortened due to carapace, seems comparable to anti-infantry weaponry. I mean, without the use of the orb, will reaper necron warrios be able to come into shooting range? The only charging unit in the list is this group of stealers, so they have dedicated onslaught support from a resonance barb neuro. Regarding number two, there's nothing I guess to make them work beyond their limits. Maybe with behemoth powers etc. That's why paroxysm is growing on me every day. If I parox the whyches and then I charge in, then I get to hit first at least (If I'm not terribly mistaken about the rules somehow). And of course there' the issue of whyches disembarking and charging, but hope is we'll hunt their transports en route with the hive guard anyway. And that's why I'm still theorycrafting here. Not sure how I can compliment the aforementioned Kronos part of the army. Genestealer unit as a counter-charger sounded ok in my mind. But I'm open to suggestions. At times like these I really wish we could take pyrovores by the 9.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 22, 2021 18:45:10 GMT
There arent many long range artillery based infantry killers - it's mostly 24" or shorter direct guns. However, without Swarmlord, your threat range is a measely 12" +2D6 charge - you need to terrain hop to reach your target with that kind of movement, so it depends on how your midboard tables look. If it's a bit weak/barren, then they'll die going up without the full protective suite.
If your idea is to countercharge, then I think using Warriors may be the better play, in the same way. You lose out on the 5++ and become subsceptible to 3D weapons are the only drawbacks, but you can lessen the blow by using Adaptive Carapace strategem to turn 3D to 2D, and 2D to 1D, making a LOT of "efficient" weapons become extremely inefficient. You get better mileage from waiting around on objectives near your base since you also can shoot at the enemy with VCs and Deathspitters (assuming they come close enough). They can also tank the first charge from the enemy, since equipping them with LWBS means they CANT be removed during the enemy's fight phase, and serve as a considerably safe bubble wrap for your HG. Genestealers would allow you to position and place much more aggressively than Warriors, but the Warriors play better with what you want to do, I think. The 2 warrior units are actually really great candidates for Enhanced Resistance, so having more units that want Adaptive Physiologies doesnt really benefit that much more.
I think you can take the points and invest into 2 Exocrenes instead, if you wanted just more shooting presence. Or big blob of bodies just to take space and sit on objectives before the warriors need to be forced there.
On a side, I'm not sure how scared I am of a Necron Reaper unit. That's 40 shots; assuming buffed before teleport, hitting on 2+, so 33 or 34 hits. 22 wounds, into a 4+sv (assumed ignore cover strategem) means 11 GS die. Then he has an awkwardly placed Reaper unit that is in range of all your anti-infantry, and have burnt a character (Necron Characters are expensive) and their best and pretty much only reaction tool, for 11 dead Genestealers. Seems like an overhwelmingly good trade for us if they did that.
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Post by beetlejuice on Aug 22, 2021 21:16:07 GMT
Concering anti infantry artillery dakka jets and rukkatrukk squigbuggies will clean up pretty much any number of stealers turn 1. A top placing ork list recently cleared 75 skitarii in one go according to goonhammers article
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Post by purestrain on Aug 23, 2021 2:22:33 GMT
Concering anti infantry artillery dakka jets and rukkatrukk squigbuggies will clean up pretty much any number of stealers turn 1. A top placing ork list recently cleared 75 skitarii in one go according to goonhammers article Speedwaaagh is so strong at the moment. Go watch the Miniwargaming Batrep where they do waaagh vs speedwaaagh, Steve Absolutely Annihilates the other guys list in his speedwaagh.
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Post by zimko on Aug 23, 2021 2:26:34 GMT
that sounds accurate. The squigbuggies are only 90 pts. Ork lists can easily spam 9 of them. They each get 2d6 shots at 36" range, ignore LOS, strength 5, ap 2, damage 2, blast, BS 4+. So with 9 of them that is 18d6 shots hitting on 4s (5s at worse with -1 to hit).
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Aug 23, 2021 5:12:15 GMT
That is incorrect. You negate the opponents hard cover when you charge. Only on release, it was FAQed almost immediately: I am confused, did it flip? Does the chargee now negate the chargers save? Wow and I thought defensive lines needed MORE buffs..
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Post by No One on Aug 23, 2021 5:13:10 GMT
Yep, it flipped so you don't get it if you charged.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Aug 23, 2021 5:16:00 GMT
Well that is a good thing we have never remembered hard cover.. Oops.
Is it as useless as Soulfire was? I dunno, but it sure tries.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 23, 2021 5:20:02 GMT
Wow and what was that about Orkz being a mediocre codex again...Jesus. I'm all sorts of "mass infantry is not working" after reading that.
Ramshackle is everything below S8 right? So our Exocrenes don't actually do anything here?
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