Cool trygon prime trick

[jplayah]

Aug 21, 2021 20:56:21 GMT kazetanade said:

Aug 21, 2021 15:52:57 GMT jplayah said:

For sure on that acid spray for certain targets. I was thinking about using the fleshborer hive to melt entire units of cannon fodder in basically one go while playing sound effects from the A-10 Warthog's machine gun for the meme potential, because that's effectively what I'm dropping on the enemy.

You won't be melting anything by itself - 20 shots 15 hits 12 wounds (assumed rerolls from Jorm and Scorch Bugs), into 6 failed saves for general 4+ saves. Works tonnes better if we can secure the double shoot rule on drop, but sadly we can't. That goes for both Exocrene and Tfex now.

Standing from base though? 40 shots no reroll do fair better but not by much.20 hits, 17 wounds, 9 failed saves into generic 4+ - almost enough to wipe a cannon fodder min squad.

A Jorm drop for that devilgant squad though... it hurts way more with the same points and cp expenditure. Devilgants also make a great backdrop for those machine-gun noises you want to make.

Has anyone actually gone through and calculated (or estimated, since defenses vary on different targets) average damage for various units? I'm curious to know what the highest average damage I can inflict from any single unit is. I'd like to try some builds with extreme damage and see what looks good. I have a bit of a silly list I've been working on involving planting a "base" of exocrines and sporocysts and just mowing things down that stick their faces out from cover.

[kazetanade]

There are some out of date ones, yes, you'd have to dig threads from the start of 8th edition. It's not too hard to make a spreadsheet if you wanted one though (I have a personal one for 8th Ed GSC).

In terms of ranking though it should goes like:

Shooting dmg efficiency:
1. Exocrene
2. Devilgants
3. HG
3. Carnifexen
4. Dakka-Flyrants

Against their respective targets. Venom cannon+ TLDs spam is not efficient at all, but has a viable strategy due to presence of 3W units and we have no other efficient source of 3D to threaten them with (other than a sole Exocrene with pathogenic slime or melee monsters).

Melee damage efficiency:
1. Genestealers
2. Dimachaeron
3. Smash-rant

Nothing else has good output efficiency or delivery potential or survivability to make it across the table in a more competitive setting, but there has been good results in casual games with 3x Toxi and 3x Haruspex. Haruspex in particular is tanky against general damage, and a single Haruapex can output well with their reroll hit strat. Toxi is our only source of prevent fallback, and does decent damage into elites.

Our general competitive lists focus on "toolbox" approach to maximize the impact of strategems, as we have many ways of making 1 of anything do well. Fight Twice, Shoot Twice, Move Twice, +1D, and reroll wounds in combat form the staple of our damage output.

Special note: genestealerz used to be our most efficient form of damage, point for point, across the entire codex. I am not sure how this has changed with pts changes over the years, but with the return of large blobs of semi-durable units, 80 Genestealer builds might be viable again, very meta dependant. So if you want a game to roll lots of dice, 3 units of max Genestealers really scratch that itch.

[jplayah]

Aug 22, 2021 4:55:32 GMT kazetanade said:

There are some out of date ones, yes, you'd have to dig threads from the start of 8th edition. It's not too hard to make a spreadsheet if you wanted one though (I have a personal one for 8th Ed GSC).

In terms of ranking though it should goes like:

Shooting dmg efficiency:
1. Exocrene
2. Devilgants
3. HG
3. Carnifexen
4. Dakka-Flyrants

Against their respective targets. Venom cannon+ TLDs spam is not efficient at all, but has a viable strategy due to presence of 3W units and we have no other efficient source of 3D to threaten them with (other than a sole Exocrene with pathogenic slime or melee monsters).

Melee damage efficiency:
1. Genestealers
2. Dimachaeron
3. Smash-rant

Nothing else has good output efficiency or delivery potential or survivability to make it across the table in a more competitive setting, but there has been good results in casual games with 3x Toxi and 3x Haruspex. Haruspex in particular is tanky against general damage, and a single Haruapex can output well with their reroll hit strat. Toxi is our only source of prevent fallback, and does decent damage into elites.

Our general competitive lists focus on "toolbox" approach to maximize the impact of strategems, as we have many ways of making 1 of anything do well. Fight Twice, Shoot Twice, Move Twice, +1D, and reroll wounds in combat form the staple of our damage output.

Special note: genestealerz used to be our most efficient form of damage, point for point, across the entire codex. I am not sure how this has changed with pts changes over the years, but with the return of large blobs of semi-durable units, 80 Genestealer builds might be viable again, very meta dependant. So if you want a game to roll lots of dice, 3 units of max Genestealers really scratch that itch.

That is super helpful info. Thanks.

I've heard that genestealers are hard to get across the battlefield in one piece due to the risk of them getting blasted to pieces. Any tips to get them to their target?

[No One]

Kraken+Swarmlord+good terrain

[infornography]

One potential issue with Trygon Prime Gant delivery is that the Trygon WILL die quickly and if there isn't another source of synapse nearby it could be very costly. You would have to be careful to deploy the gant bomb nearby more durable synapse.

[zimko]

I don't think you need any synapse except for when they shoot to prevent -1 to hit. Moral honestly doesn't matter. If your opponent doesn't wipe out the unit... lets say they kill 15 of them. You have a 1 in 6 chance of losing nothing more (roll a 1). And if you fail that, then you'll only lose about 5 more gants. In 8th edition the squad would be decimated and nearly wiped out. Now, you'd still have 10 gants. The more models you lose before taking moral, the fewer models you'll lose as a result of moral. It's counter-intuitive but that's how it is.

[kazetanade]

Yea, morale doesn't mean that much anymore right now. It was a far bigger deal in 8th and even then it barely ever mattered. Honestly, I don't remember an edition where morale was ever done in a satisfying and impactful way across all codices- more often than not it was just ignored or irrelevant.

[zimko]

I do remember it mattering in 3rd and 4th edition. Back then, you could run entire units off the board simply by 'winning' in melee (killing more of their models than they killed of your, which could be as few as 1). The losing unit rolled moral. If it failed, they would 'run' towards their own board edge. And as long as an enemy unit was within 12" then they couldn't regroup. Eventually running off the board edge. Space Marines of course auto-regrouped. Moral from shooting was taken if you lost 25% of the unit in a single turn.

Oof it's a miracle I don't get rules from different editions mixed up.

[kazetanade]

Aug 24, 2021 16:06:21 GMT zimko said:

I do remember it mattering in 3rd and 4th edition. Back then, you could run entire units off the board simply by 'winning' in melee (killing more of their models than they killed of your, which could be as few as 1). The losing unit rolled moral. If it failed, they would 'run' towards their own board edge. And as long as an enemy unit was within 12" then they couldn't regroup. Eventually running off the board edge. Space Marines of course auto-regrouped. Moral from shooting was taken if you lost 25% of the unit in a single turn.

Oof it's a miracle I don't get rules from different editions mixed up.

This was still the case in 7th, but it was just not relevant because everyone was either Fearless or ATSKNF!

[infornography]

My entire reason for caring about synapse on devilgaunts IS the -1 to hit when they call their targets. That matters. Who cares about attrition tests?

[zimko]

Aug 25, 2021 14:01:38 GMT infornography said:

My entire reason for caring about synapse on devilgaunts IS the -1 to hit when they call their targets. That matters. Who cares about attrition tests?

If that's the only reason for synapse then it doesn't matter if the trygon dies the turn after entering the battlefield. Because if he dies, then it's almost guaranteed that the devgants are also dead or are engaged in melee.

Even still, the synapse range for ignoring Instinctive Behavior is 24". The trygon doesn't need to be synapse. It's not hard to get a synapse creature within 24" range of a deep striking unit.