(Mildly) Good News Everybody

[purestrain]

Jun 3, 2021 14:06:15 GMT bolk said:

Jun 3, 2021 13:42:07 GMT purestrain said:

Soooo what does the harpy do now? does it make it so you cannot be chosen until all of the units within a specific "fights X" have had their go? or after every unit has had its chance?

All enemy units within 1" of the Harpy are now Fight Last as per the example.

How? it only changes eligibility, not what "fight X" they are in.


"...cannot be chosen to Fight until all other eligible units have done so."


Doesn't say make them fight last, it says that of those who are eligible (an entirely different criteria to "Fight x") get to go first, it says nothing about making them become fight last, so does it make them be the last unit that can be selected DURING a "fight first" if they charged or have a fight first ability? or does it make them be the last in line end of story, because RAW feels like my first interpretation of it 

[bolk]

Jun 3, 2021 15:18:49 GMT purestrain said:

Jun 3, 2021 14:06:15 GMT bolk said:

All enemy units within 1" of the Harpy are now Fight Last as per the example.

How? it only changes eligibility, not what "fight X" they are in.


"...cannot be chosen to Fight until all other eligible units have done so."


Doesn't say make them fight last, it says that of those who are eligible (an entirely different criteria to "Fight x") get to go first, it says nothing about making them become fight last, so does it make them be the last unit that can be selected DURING a "fight first" if they charged or have a fight first ability? or does it make them be the last in line end of story, because RAW feels like my first interpretation of it 

If you read the Designer's Commentary, you have 3 steps;
1. Those who are eligible Fight First.
2. Those who are eligible Fight Normal.
3. Those who are eligible Fight Last.

If the enemy unit being charged are step 2, Normal, they become step 3, Last, from the Harpys Screech. So all involved units that are step 1 and 2 fight before the enemy unit.
If they have an ability that make them step 1, First, they become step 2 from the Screech ability. So all involved units that are step 1 fight before the enemy unit, but other units that are step 3 fights after them.

[purestrain]

Jun 3, 2021 15:39:39 GMT bolk said:

Jun 3, 2021 15:18:49 GMT purestrain said:

How? it only changes eligibility, not what "fight X" they are in.


"...cannot be chosen to Fight until all other eligible units have done so."


Doesn't say make them fight last, it says that of those who are eligible (an entirely different criteria to "Fight x") get to go first, it says nothing about making them become fight last, so does it make them be the last unit that can be selected DURING a "fight first" if they charged or have a fight first ability? or does it make them be the last in line end of story, because RAW feels like my first interpretation of it 

If you read the Designer's Commentary, you have 3 steps;
1. Those who are eligible Fight First.
2. Those who are eligible Fight Normal.
3. Those who are eligible Fight Last.

If the enemy unit being charged are step 2, Normal, they become step 3, Last, from the Harpys Screech. So all involved units that are step 1 and 2 fight before the enemy unit.
If they have an ability that make them step 1, First, they become step 2 from the Screech ability. So all involved units that are step 1 fight before the enemy unit, but other units that are step 3 fights after them.

It changes their placement within their eligibility (until all other eligible units have done so) so they wouldnt be 3, they would be last of all the 2's then the 3s would go, from my understanding. discuss?

[bolk]

Jun 3, 2021 16:00:03 GMT purestrain said:

Jun 3, 2021 15:39:39 GMT bolk said:

If you read the Designer's Commentary, you have 3 steps;
1. Those who are eligible Fight First.
2. Those who are eligible Fight Normal.
3. Those who are eligible Fight Last.

If the enemy unit being charged are step 2, Normal, they become step 3, Last, from the Harpys Screech. So all involved units that are step 1 and 2 fight before the enemy unit.
If they have an ability that make them step 1, First, they become step 2 from the Screech ability. So all involved units that are step 1 fight before the enemy unit, but other units that are step 3 fights after them.

It changes their placement within their eligibility (until all other eligible units have done so) so they wouldnt be 3, they would be last of all the 2's then the 3s would go, from my understanding. discuss?

No, the Harpy's Sonic Screech and the Judiciar's Tempormortis has the same wording. If you see in the example in the Designer's Commentary, the Skorpekh Destroyers are charged, so originally step 2, Normal, but are put in step 3, Last, by the Judiciar's Tempormortis.

Within each step you and the opponent alternate which unit goes first;
Step 1; starting with the player whose turn is taking place.
Step 2; starting with the player whose turn is NOT taking place.
Step 3; starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

[Kitane]

Charging into Revolting Stench Vats is still a problem.

The relic strips away the Charged status, which means the unit doesn't get the Fight First buff and the Fight Last debuff will go through.

[bolk]

Jun 3, 2021 16:44:46 GMT Kitane said:

Charging into Revolting Stench Vats is still a problem.

The relic strips away the Charged status, which means the unit doesn't get the Fight First buff and the Fight Last debuff will go through.

Which makes the unit step 2 instead of step 1. Which Fight Last debuff do you mean?

[piersonsmuppet]

Jun 3, 2021 16:00:03 GMT purestrain said:

It changes their placement within their eligibility (until all other eligible units have done so) so they wouldnt be 3, they would be last of all the 2's then the 3s would go, from my understanding. discuss?

I think the Fight First/Last section in the Rare Rules adds better clarification. Rules that state "ineligible to fight" are specifically called out as fight last abilities, and Armor of Russ is listed as a fight last rule ("ineligible to fight"). They've basically negated all the fancy rules writing they did, probably because it created too much complexity with non-ineligible fight last rules and how much "ineligible" rules crippled multi-charging. The examples in the designer commentary support this, since an "ineligible" rule cause a unit to fight in the fight last phase. If ineligible was supposed to be different than fight last, I would agree that the skorpekh unit should fight last in step 2. However, I think that goes against the current theme of making the game more streamlined, since you'd have Steps 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 3a, and 3b. That method also wouldn't prevent chargers from attacking first, since they would attack last amongst step 1 units. I think where it is at now is a good place, but it would be nice if unit rules were updated to read fight first/last instead of "ineligible".

[Hive Bahamut]

Sure am glad this is crystal clear now. James is at it again.

Fight first.. Fight last. Almost like there used to be a stat that reflected how quick something was..

[niiai]

I find the fight first fight last quite easy. The wording of 9th have all used the same wording infighting last. I dig it.

[No One]

bolk said:

Which makes the unit step 2 instead of step 1. Which Fight Last debuff do you mean?

The one that a FBS has. Stench vats is no charge/fight first. They also have a fight last, same as judiciar.

[infornography]

It is enough to make one miss the initiative stat from earlier editions.

[purestrain]

Jun 7, 2021 13:59:39 GMT infornography said:

It is enough to make one miss the initiative stat from earlier editions.

Sure does, couldnt wait to run directly at a captain to have him mow me down with his claws because spacepups were retarded in that fashion, sporting i5-9 all over the place

[bolk]

Jun 7, 2021 13:59:39 GMT infornography said:

It is enough to make one miss the initiative stat from earlier editions.

Hell no, that stuff took forever...

[killercroc]

Initiative was a very simple concept/ruling. Pick a combat, start from I10 and work back to I1. Gaunts were I4, Marines were I4 so you knew they swung at the same time. If your opponent had a Captain in the squad you knew he'd get 3 attacks at I5. ASF/ASL only added a +/- to the initiative step. If there were two ASF units in a combat they would make their attacks in the same I10 to I1 way as normal, once they finished you moved onto normal combat Initiative count down. ASL units would do the same but at the tail end. Straight forward, didn't need multiple FAQs and rules re-writing to get it to work. Just the ability to read at a 5th grade level.

Charging into cover made you I1, if you have assault grenades you swung at base I. The issue Tyranids had was they lost the ability to take assault grenades in the jump from 4th to 5th ed. The issue wasn't the rules, the issue was the assault heavy army didn't get assault grenades because the author who wrote the codex did not do a good job. Doesn't mean the basic rules themselves were flawed.

[purestrain]

most monsters were I3 swarmy was like I7-8 iirc, didnt even matter if you ran at them in the open, half the time you got cut down anyway with carnifex with (iirc) 3w and ws4. I cant even remember what Crushing Claws did back then on them