Post by draaen on Jun 1, 2021 3:29:15 GMT
So as I did last time I am writing up a prebattle report analysis. My game is scheduled for the 13th. This opponent I have played many times and he has a heavily converted army which has bene an guard army, chaos space marine and finally an admech army. So he is running it as his essentially chaos space marine monster mash along with an admech "dark mechanicum" outrider.
A couple of initial points is that my list is going to have to undergo some changes if for no other reason then the fact that I am saving some points in the new chapter approved points. Secondly my opponent has come up with some very specific strategies and loadouts to deal with my lists in the past. So I expect less of a generic TAC list and a bit more of a list that will skew towards anti-tank.
The Current List:
Custom Hive Fleet - +1 to hit for monsters, Re-Roll one hit when within 6" of synapse
Swarmlord
Hive Tyrant - Wings, Venom Cannon, Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands
Hive Tyrant - Venom Cannon (Relic), Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands
Broodlord - (Resonance Barb)
3 x 3 Rippers
3 - Toxicrenes
2 - Trygons - Adrenal Glands, Static Tail
Exocrine - Synapse
Tyrannofex - Fleshborer Hives, ADrenal Glands, Dermic Symbiosis
I was pretty happy with how the list performed last time so I am not looking to make any majour changes. Notably I am trying out the fleshborer hive. The acid spray tyrannofex has been crazy valuable and am not pretty sure will be a better all rounder then the fleshborer hive. Sometimes math hammer does not catch the whole picture so we shall give it a go. I essentially have 30 points extra from the swarmlord reduction. As far as I see it I have a couple modifications I can make to this list
List Change Apparent Options
1. Toxin sacks on Hive Tyrants and Trygons - These guys will most likely be re-rolling wounds. If going against a vehicle flat 4 of d6+1 damage would be nice
2. Upgrade Broodlord to Hive Tyrant - Kid of want to avoid 3 tyrants though as I am pretty sure they will be limited 1/detachment in a new codex.
3. Give Hive Walking hive tyrant some death spitters and both hive tyrants toxin sacks - In case I decide I want more back line objective holding
4. Downgrade Broodlord to Neurothrope upgrade Trygons to Trygon primes - Additional shooting and synapse bubbles plus maybe some relic combos.
Kind of leaning toward option one or 3 though. The two primes would be there to give a synapse aura to a toxicrene or help themselves out if they get hurt. Although the additional shots are nice too. Starting to think of how to fit some warriors into a nidzilla list. Although then it just gives an effective place for bolters to go. I just like the models but darn are they expensive for two full units of 9!
As a procedural point I have faced this opponent many times. However I typically do write ups after battle reports and I tend to be more critical in those analysis then I would in person out of respect for my opponent. So while I may describe my opponent I'll leave it at more general traits/playstyles and I will leave any judgements on how strong of a general they are out of my analysis to ensure if someone does meander onto this from the club they aren't insulted if I thought of them lower then they thought they should be.
With that out of the way I have played against this opponent quite a few times. Last time I played him in person was pre-covid. He ran a chaos space marine list which had a couple disco lords, some maulerfiends as well as some tanks, venomcrawler and a lot of cultists. He used a version of them where they could force their vehicles ot auto blow up and heal 3 wounds for 1 cp. Colour me jealous. His admech is going to be trickier to assess as this was a later addition for him. I know he runs sulphur hounds and is certainly assessing the best forge world he would want to use. He obviously will need 3 fast attack choices so maybe he has chicken walkers or flyboys too. As a general he's sort of shifted from a very passive shooting castle to an aggressive monster list. He typically cares a lot about the theme of his lists which limits his tactical choices but is always looking for different angles and has taken some special tech into our matches to attempt to counter or diminish my favourite strategies. So I am expecting some anti-nidzilla specials although nothing too specific as we haven't seen each other play in a long time now lol. I think some of his tricks phased out too as before he had massive buffs to his disco lord but I am pretty sure that was a specialist detachment.
As far as what to plan against soup is kind of too much to worry about so let's look at some things we do know namely venomcrawlers, maulerfiends, Disco Lords and defilers. Venomcrawlers are fairly fast will have decent long range shooting and at its top bracket will do a max of 12 wounds and only have 10 wounds. Maulerfiends are likewise fast but will need to fight in melee. Their lasher tendrils and mauler fists will likely kill a toxicrene or trygon if he uses his demon forge stratagem especially if the disco lord is nearby. Speaking of the disco lord I am always shocked that people are disappointed with him this guy is fast tough and can really hurt anything in the game he will be a prime target. Also the defiler is certainly capable of being somewhat effective at range but up close he can do a lot of damage to my tanks. Factor in I will likely be getting some toughness reduction shenanigans from the admech side and I think he will have a lot of effective tools. He is doing a lot of the same things as me, warp time vs hive commander big bugs vs big daemon engines it's a bit of an odd mirror match.
So seems to me this is looking like another blood bath in the center with long range support on either side. In that regard I kind of think I should almost stick to the old game plan. Hold back turn 1 a bit so that I can focus down some units. I think removing the disco lord, toughness reducers and ranged DPS is sort of my target priority that I will need. Otherwise I think that there is going to be a scrum in the center and if the disco lords are eliminated and I can fight the remaining monsters buggo e daemano I will win due to having more points invested and our punchiness being similar.
The one element within my own list I am uncertain of is the fleshborer hive tyranofex. Normally I envision the flamer walking into the center and basically says come at me bro. He can flame those who charge him, then punch reasonably well then flame them on my turn. His flamer scares anything in the game. a bunch of S5 ap 0 shots is not necessarily going to do that. While I could give the additional damage to it and hope weight of dice carry the day is okay but that is 2 CP and I am not drowning in CP. This is a 0-2 a game stratagem for me. Maybe I just need to deploy him late or even deploy him early on a flank. Then my opponent will be like hah my infantry are going on the opposite flank! Adrenaline surge and maybe a hive commander later that little guy could move 21"+3d6 if I have take his five points and give him adrenal glands. Maybe that would be worth it?
Let's look at the fleshborer hive. First off my tyranofex will have dermic symbiosis so we can assume he is operating at peak BS4+ efficiency. So he can shoot twice and he has 20 S5 Ap 0 shots and 4 S5 AP-1 shots for 24 shots. I am not going to worry about my synapse re-roll lol. So 20 shots - 10 hits - 6-7 wounds vs T4 or lower. So 2 wounds at 3+, 3-4 wounds at 4+, 4-5 wounds at 5+ and 6 wounds and 6+. double that for shooting twice means 2 dead marines, 6-8 dead rangers ,8-10 dead pathfinders and 12 cultists. Add in 8 shots for the spine banks and you get an additional 1-2 wounds depending on the target and their save. So he can eliminate or neuter a unit of light infantry generally. Vs a vehicle with a 3+ save 48 shots - 24 hits - 8 Wounds - 2-3 failed saves so the additional damage would be 2-3 additional damage for like 4-6 vs a tank? That is way not worth it. So this guy is a infantry hunter which certainly can have a place in my list as anti-infantry for like hordes is a concern for this list. just want to make sure I have the right expectations for this guy. My misgivings are high but I shall press forward with this choice.
One final note I just based my toxicrenes tonight and the rippers are well underway and should be done for this game. very rewarding to see my core get painted up and on the table.
Anyways this post is long enough. I'll continue to noodle this over a little as I await for my game
A couple of initial points is that my list is going to have to undergo some changes if for no other reason then the fact that I am saving some points in the new chapter approved points. Secondly my opponent has come up with some very specific strategies and loadouts to deal with my lists in the past. So I expect less of a generic TAC list and a bit more of a list that will skew towards anti-tank.
The Current List:
Custom Hive Fleet - +1 to hit for monsters, Re-Roll one hit when within 6" of synapse
Swarmlord
Hive Tyrant - Wings, Venom Cannon, Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands
Hive Tyrant - Venom Cannon (Relic), Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands
Broodlord - (Resonance Barb)
3 x 3 Rippers
3 - Toxicrenes
2 - Trygons - Adrenal Glands, Static Tail
Exocrine - Synapse
Tyrannofex - Fleshborer Hives, ADrenal Glands, Dermic Symbiosis
I was pretty happy with how the list performed last time so I am not looking to make any majour changes. Notably I am trying out the fleshborer hive. The acid spray tyrannofex has been crazy valuable and am not pretty sure will be a better all rounder then the fleshborer hive. Sometimes math hammer does not catch the whole picture so we shall give it a go. I essentially have 30 points extra from the swarmlord reduction. As far as I see it I have a couple modifications I can make to this list
List Change Apparent Options
1. Toxin sacks on Hive Tyrants and Trygons - These guys will most likely be re-rolling wounds. If going against a vehicle flat 4 of d6+1 damage would be nice
2. Upgrade Broodlord to Hive Tyrant - Kid of want to avoid 3 tyrants though as I am pretty sure they will be limited 1/detachment in a new codex.
3. Give Hive Walking hive tyrant some death spitters and both hive tyrants toxin sacks - In case I decide I want more back line objective holding
4. Downgrade Broodlord to Neurothrope upgrade Trygons to Trygon primes - Additional shooting and synapse bubbles plus maybe some relic combos.
Kind of leaning toward option one or 3 though. The two primes would be there to give a synapse aura to a toxicrene or help themselves out if they get hurt. Although the additional shots are nice too. Starting to think of how to fit some warriors into a nidzilla list. Although then it just gives an effective place for bolters to go. I just like the models but darn are they expensive for two full units of 9!
As a procedural point I have faced this opponent many times. However I typically do write ups after battle reports and I tend to be more critical in those analysis then I would in person out of respect for my opponent. So while I may describe my opponent I'll leave it at more general traits/playstyles and I will leave any judgements on how strong of a general they are out of my analysis to ensure if someone does meander onto this from the club they aren't insulted if I thought of them lower then they thought they should be.
With that out of the way I have played against this opponent quite a few times. Last time I played him in person was pre-covid. He ran a chaos space marine list which had a couple disco lords, some maulerfiends as well as some tanks, venomcrawler and a lot of cultists. He used a version of them where they could force their vehicles ot auto blow up and heal 3 wounds for 1 cp. Colour me jealous. His admech is going to be trickier to assess as this was a later addition for him. I know he runs sulphur hounds and is certainly assessing the best forge world he would want to use. He obviously will need 3 fast attack choices so maybe he has chicken walkers or flyboys too. As a general he's sort of shifted from a very passive shooting castle to an aggressive monster list. He typically cares a lot about the theme of his lists which limits his tactical choices but is always looking for different angles and has taken some special tech into our matches to attempt to counter or diminish my favourite strategies. So I am expecting some anti-nidzilla specials although nothing too specific as we haven't seen each other play in a long time now lol. I think some of his tricks phased out too as before he had massive buffs to his disco lord but I am pretty sure that was a specialist detachment.
As far as what to plan against soup is kind of too much to worry about so let's look at some things we do know namely venomcrawlers, maulerfiends, Disco Lords and defilers. Venomcrawlers are fairly fast will have decent long range shooting and at its top bracket will do a max of 12 wounds and only have 10 wounds. Maulerfiends are likewise fast but will need to fight in melee. Their lasher tendrils and mauler fists will likely kill a toxicrene or trygon if he uses his demon forge stratagem especially if the disco lord is nearby. Speaking of the disco lord I am always shocked that people are disappointed with him this guy is fast tough and can really hurt anything in the game he will be a prime target. Also the defiler is certainly capable of being somewhat effective at range but up close he can do a lot of damage to my tanks. Factor in I will likely be getting some toughness reduction shenanigans from the admech side and I think he will have a lot of effective tools. He is doing a lot of the same things as me, warp time vs hive commander big bugs vs big daemon engines it's a bit of an odd mirror match.
So seems to me this is looking like another blood bath in the center with long range support on either side. In that regard I kind of think I should almost stick to the old game plan. Hold back turn 1 a bit so that I can focus down some units. I think removing the disco lord, toughness reducers and ranged DPS is sort of my target priority that I will need. Otherwise I think that there is going to be a scrum in the center and if the disco lords are eliminated and I can fight the remaining monsters buggo e daemano I will win due to having more points invested and our punchiness being similar.
The one element within my own list I am uncertain of is the fleshborer hive tyranofex. Normally I envision the flamer walking into the center and basically says come at me bro. He can flame those who charge him, then punch reasonably well then flame them on my turn. His flamer scares anything in the game. a bunch of S5 ap 0 shots is not necessarily going to do that. While I could give the additional damage to it and hope weight of dice carry the day is okay but that is 2 CP and I am not drowning in CP. This is a 0-2 a game stratagem for me. Maybe I just need to deploy him late or even deploy him early on a flank. Then my opponent will be like hah my infantry are going on the opposite flank! Adrenaline surge and maybe a hive commander later that little guy could move 21"+3d6 if I have take his five points and give him adrenal glands. Maybe that would be worth it?
Let's look at the fleshborer hive. First off my tyranofex will have dermic symbiosis so we can assume he is operating at peak BS4+ efficiency. So he can shoot twice and he has 20 S5 Ap 0 shots and 4 S5 AP-1 shots for 24 shots. I am not going to worry about my synapse re-roll lol. So 20 shots - 10 hits - 6-7 wounds vs T4 or lower. So 2 wounds at 3+, 3-4 wounds at 4+, 4-5 wounds at 5+ and 6 wounds and 6+. double that for shooting twice means 2 dead marines, 6-8 dead rangers ,8-10 dead pathfinders and 12 cultists. Add in 8 shots for the spine banks and you get an additional 1-2 wounds depending on the target and their save. So he can eliminate or neuter a unit of light infantry generally. Vs a vehicle with a 3+ save 48 shots - 24 hits - 8 Wounds - 2-3 failed saves so the additional damage would be 2-3 additional damage for like 4-6 vs a tank? That is way not worth it. So this guy is a infantry hunter which certainly can have a place in my list as anti-infantry for like hordes is a concern for this list. just want to make sure I have the right expectations for this guy. My misgivings are high but I shall press forward with this choice.
One final note I just based my toxicrenes tonight and the rippers are well underway and should be done for this game. very rewarding to see my core get painted up and on the table.
Anyways this post is long enough. I'll continue to noodle this over a little as I await for my game
