Some potentially underutilized nice things
May 5, 2021 12:27:32 GMT
No One and kwisatzhaderach like this
Post by windwalkerranger on May 5, 2021 12:27:32 GMT
Hello.
Actively playing since a couple months online.
Trying non-meta things just for the sake of it, but without becoming outright silly things.
There are a couple of things I noticed I would like to take your opinions on before I go on with my theorycrafting.
1-Why don't we use more pyrovores?
Hear me on this one. These guys are 28 pts for 4w with t4 and sv4+. They are like warriors with one additional HP, and with the weapons also included in the costs, they are equally prices in terms of durability. Sure, they lose the synapse, and they can only be fielded in units of three... But they come with auto-hit D6 weapons, and once they are in melee they are arguably better against certain units compared to standard warriors with more strength and much better AP. Not only that, but killing a trio of them in melee averages to 3.5 mortal wounds taken. While they have 1 inch shorter move then warriors, they can safely advance as their weapon is auto-hit.
Strategically, we have great shooting against targets with moderate to high toughness and AP, and we have realtively acceptable elite-killers that work against anything short of terminators, but we are struggling against chaff, and when we try to focus on chaff we suffer in the first two aspects mentioned. I feel like pyrovores can work against both chaff and elites and even are threat to the best of the bunch out there in melee, including terminators. Each unit of biovores killed in melee almost equals one dead terminator.
2-Harpies/Crones instead of Mawlocs
A mawloc gives us the ability to drop in and deny a non-obsec secured objective, as well as creating a presence in a new quarter of the board in case we are playing the engage on all fronts strategem (or linebreaker), starting from turn 2 onwards. Then in the opponents side of the turn, he has a new monster to shoot and charge off of somehow, helping the threat saturation. That being said, mawloc doesn't engage with the unit it hurts in melee, and thus can't choose which shooter to silence, and it can only perform all of these starting from turn 2 onwards. With some luck, it can do this twice.
Crones and Harpies can move 30 inch and then charge 2d6, an average threat range of 37 inch without any other factor, right on turn 1. You can safely engage chaff, even in the middle of the opponent deployment, on turn 1 if you start. This has the potential to punish mistakes in opponent deployment, where you can find the chance to charge into some elite shooters or destroy a transport or stop the advance of some large blob of chaff. Not only that, but from this point onwards it's everything a mawloc is, with benefits. Mawlocs are terrible in cc, and while the flyers are not shining stars as well, they are still better. Same toughness and same wounds with mawloc, with a one-wors save but at least you have better melee weapons, and you can shoot in melee as well, making them better overall.
What happens if you don't get the first turn and your fliers are focused on? Well, at this case it's the same as the mawloc being shot after it arrives. I believe that certain armylist compositions can surprise the enemy with harpies or crones, like if you have a malanthrophe for -1 to hit or a maleceptor for -1 str in shooting, and/or you are leviathan for 6+++. Various custom hive fleet specialities also can help a lot, like the membraneous mobility.
3- There is something beautiful in a leviathan warlordmalanthroph neurothroph.
A leviathanmalanthrophe neurothroph with perfectly adapted trait from the leviathan fleet can use its reroll on its 3++ invul save. I for some reason find this absolutely beautiful, especially considering the additional 6+++. And on that note...
4-Extremely tanky leviathan swarmlord/hive tyrant groups with tyrant guards (and some variations)
If I'm not getting anything wrong, a leviathan fleet tyrant with leviathan warlord trait "perfectly adapted", and say, 3 tyrant guards accompanying it, in combination with a malanthrophe/trio of venomhtrophes and a maleceptor, can do this: catalyst the tyrant guards. If the tyrant is shot with-1 to hit, and then the weapon can wound it with-1 strength, and if the 4++ saving throw fails despite one reroll with the "perfectly adapted" trait, and then for each wound you fail the 6+++ leviathan FNP, these wounds can be transferred to a tyrant guard on a 2+, who in turn take it as mortal wounds but still get to use the 5+++ from catalyst. I find this, extremely amazing, despite the huge points sink. However, I feel like we can create an awesome anvil with this combination. The problem is, a single walking hive tyrant project enough strength onto the board to make all of this viable. So maybe we can field more tyrants and tyrant guards? Say, 2 dakka tyrants with 6 guards? Another issue is, it's possible and more likely for the opponent to directly shoot at the tyrant guard first, who would at least still benefit from -1 to hit and -1 to weapon str, and 5+++. Maybe they could be put into cover for some potential 5++/6++ saves, or they could be hidden from the view.
We could replace the tyrant with a swarmlord to create a better threat, however we lose the reroll from the perfectly adapted, and then the group also has to advance as a whole because what good is a swarmlord sitting in your deployment zone? (Except launching threat after threat onto opponent side with the ability)
4.5-The song of the immortal hydra tyrant
Pick hydra. Set aside 120 points of reserve points. Catalyst the guards. Advance your swarmlord and tyrant guard close to one of the board edges. When the guards die, reintroduce them on the board edge with the hydra variant of the endless swarm strategem. You could also field 4 raveners and start them on the board, and or test out a tervigon, just in case those 120 points aren't needed for the tyrant guard. (We can do this right? Or do we have to choose what those unspent 120 points represent before the game starts?)
5-MSU warrior squads with VC
I have tested this once in a game where the dices were so skewed against me that the results are statistically inconclusive. Basically, a trio of warriors where 2 has nothing but scytals and 1 has VC costs you 66 points. This is amazingly good for what you are getting. A battallion troop selection full of these guys are amazing, with really only one huge drawback: you become points feed for the Grind them down secondary objective. In return you get amazing obsec presence, anti-teleport/deepstrike curtain, perfect synapse web, and a huge benefit during deployment where you can place your key units where they are needed/safest the most. This setup is amazing with the custom hive fleet power "synaptic augmentation" where each vc warrior can reroll once to hit. In that one game I played I keyed in a trio of heavy venom cannon carnifexes and two heavy venom cannon tyrants as well to make even more use of this ability, but rolled so, so many 1's to wound that it wasn't funny. But then my opponent made so many 6+ saves and so many reanimations (he was necrons, obv.) that it became funny again, completing a whole cycle of unfunnyness (what?).
6-Maleceptor plus Malanthrophe/Venomthrophe combination not getting enough love
With the idea that you can field two shooty monsters (barbed hierodules, exocrines, rupture-tyranofexes) along with a maleceptor and a malanthrophe, you can create a serious stationary power projection center that are seriously though to remove. Add in some screens, and potentially another psyker (maybe a tyrant, maybe a neurothroph, both are commonly present in lists) and you've got all types of answers for things that can come and attempt to bind in melee your powerbase. Light and fast units with numbers can be bound with the screen, while elites that can operate deep within your ranks can be smitten with the psykers (and then bound with the screen to repeat the process). A malanthroph and a maleceptor combined costs 320 points, and you can get a cheaper variation for about 270 points with a trio of venomthrophes. If our shooting base is projecting enough of a threat onto the board to make this investment worth it to protect them, we should consider this. Kronos is favored at the moment, and I think can do this very very effectively. So why no one is doing this? Why does everyone instead prefer a swarmlord, who does... some amazing things every now and then, but really, comparing points per points for what you get, which investment is really better? Depends on the list for sure... I don't know, I still can't justify 270 points for nothing but the chance to send one suicidal unit into enemy ranks in the first turn, and then get a walking melee hive tyrant for later.
I feel like, having ourselves so indulged on kronos efficiency and dimacheron damage and turn 1 engagement potential of the swarmlord, we are overlooking something. What are your thougths on the above, and on other similar things?
Actively playing since a couple months online.
Trying non-meta things just for the sake of it, but without becoming outright silly things.
There are a couple of things I noticed I would like to take your opinions on before I go on with my theorycrafting.
1-Why don't we use more pyrovores?
Hear me on this one. These guys are 28 pts for 4w with t4 and sv4+. They are like warriors with one additional HP, and with the weapons also included in the costs, they are equally prices in terms of durability. Sure, they lose the synapse, and they can only be fielded in units of three... But they come with auto-hit D6 weapons, and once they are in melee they are arguably better against certain units compared to standard warriors with more strength and much better AP. Not only that, but killing a trio of them in melee averages to 3.5 mortal wounds taken. While they have 1 inch shorter move then warriors, they can safely advance as their weapon is auto-hit.
Strategically, we have great shooting against targets with moderate to high toughness and AP, and we have realtively acceptable elite-killers that work against anything short of terminators, but we are struggling against chaff, and when we try to focus on chaff we suffer in the first two aspects mentioned. I feel like pyrovores can work against both chaff and elites and even are threat to the best of the bunch out there in melee, including terminators. Each unit of biovores killed in melee almost equals one dead terminator.
2-Harpies/Crones instead of Mawlocs
A mawloc gives us the ability to drop in and deny a non-obsec secured objective, as well as creating a presence in a new quarter of the board in case we are playing the engage on all fronts strategem (or linebreaker), starting from turn 2 onwards. Then in the opponents side of the turn, he has a new monster to shoot and charge off of somehow, helping the threat saturation. That being said, mawloc doesn't engage with the unit it hurts in melee, and thus can't choose which shooter to silence, and it can only perform all of these starting from turn 2 onwards. With some luck, it can do this twice.
Crones and Harpies can move 30 inch and then charge 2d6, an average threat range of 37 inch without any other factor, right on turn 1. You can safely engage chaff, even in the middle of the opponent deployment, on turn 1 if you start. This has the potential to punish mistakes in opponent deployment, where you can find the chance to charge into some elite shooters or destroy a transport or stop the advance of some large blob of chaff. Not only that, but from this point onwards it's everything a mawloc is, with benefits. Mawlocs are terrible in cc, and while the flyers are not shining stars as well, they are still better. Same toughness and same wounds with mawloc, with a one-wors save but at least you have better melee weapons, and you can shoot in melee as well, making them better overall.
What happens if you don't get the first turn and your fliers are focused on? Well, at this case it's the same as the mawloc being shot after it arrives. I believe that certain armylist compositions can surprise the enemy with harpies or crones, like if you have a malanthrophe for -1 to hit or a maleceptor for -1 str in shooting, and/or you are leviathan for 6+++. Various custom hive fleet specialities also can help a lot, like the membraneous mobility.
3- There is something beautiful in a leviathan warlord
A leviathan
4-Extremely tanky leviathan swarmlord/hive tyrant groups with tyrant guards (and some variations)
If I'm not getting anything wrong, a leviathan fleet tyrant with leviathan warlord trait "perfectly adapted", and say, 3 tyrant guards accompanying it, in combination with a malanthrophe/trio of venomhtrophes and a maleceptor, can do this: catalyst the tyrant guards. If the tyrant is shot with-1 to hit, and then the weapon can wound it with-1 strength, and if the 4++ saving throw fails despite one reroll with the "perfectly adapted" trait, and then for each wound you fail the 6+++ leviathan FNP, these wounds can be transferred to a tyrant guard on a 2+, who in turn take it as mortal wounds but still get to use the 5+++ from catalyst. I find this, extremely amazing, despite the huge points sink. However, I feel like we can create an awesome anvil with this combination. The problem is, a single walking hive tyrant project enough strength onto the board to make all of this viable. So maybe we can field more tyrants and tyrant guards? Say, 2 dakka tyrants with 6 guards? Another issue is, it's possible and more likely for the opponent to directly shoot at the tyrant guard first, who would at least still benefit from -1 to hit and -1 to weapon str, and 5+++. Maybe they could be put into cover for some potential 5++/6++ saves, or they could be hidden from the view.
We could replace the tyrant with a swarmlord to create a better threat, however we lose the reroll from the perfectly adapted, and then the group also has to advance as a whole because what good is a swarmlord sitting in your deployment zone? (Except launching threat after threat onto opponent side with the ability)
4.5-The song of the immortal hydra tyrant
Pick hydra. Set aside 120 points of reserve points. Catalyst the guards. Advance your swarmlord and tyrant guard close to one of the board edges. When the guards die, reintroduce them on the board edge with the hydra variant of the endless swarm strategem. You could also field 4 raveners and start them on the board, and or test out a tervigon, just in case those 120 points aren't needed for the tyrant guard. (We can do this right? Or do we have to choose what those unspent 120 points represent before the game starts?)
5-MSU warrior squads with VC
I have tested this once in a game where the dices were so skewed against me that the results are statistically inconclusive. Basically, a trio of warriors where 2 has nothing but scytals and 1 has VC costs you 66 points. This is amazingly good for what you are getting. A battallion troop selection full of these guys are amazing, with really only one huge drawback: you become points feed for the Grind them down secondary objective. In return you get amazing obsec presence, anti-teleport/deepstrike curtain, perfect synapse web, and a huge benefit during deployment where you can place your key units where they are needed/safest the most. This setup is amazing with the custom hive fleet power "synaptic augmentation" where each vc warrior can reroll once to hit. In that one game I played I keyed in a trio of heavy venom cannon carnifexes and two heavy venom cannon tyrants as well to make even more use of this ability, but rolled so, so many 1's to wound that it wasn't funny. But then my opponent made so many 6+ saves and so many reanimations (he was necrons, obv.) that it became funny again, completing a whole cycle of unfunnyness (what?).
6-Maleceptor plus Malanthrophe/Venomthrophe combination not getting enough love
With the idea that you can field two shooty monsters (barbed hierodules, exocrines, rupture-tyranofexes) along with a maleceptor and a malanthrophe, you can create a serious stationary power projection center that are seriously though to remove. Add in some screens, and potentially another psyker (maybe a tyrant, maybe a neurothroph, both are commonly present in lists) and you've got all types of answers for things that can come and attempt to bind in melee your powerbase. Light and fast units with numbers can be bound with the screen, while elites that can operate deep within your ranks can be smitten with the psykers (and then bound with the screen to repeat the process). A malanthroph and a maleceptor combined costs 320 points, and you can get a cheaper variation for about 270 points with a trio of venomthrophes. If our shooting base is projecting enough of a threat onto the board to make this investment worth it to protect them, we should consider this. Kronos is favored at the moment, and I think can do this very very effectively. So why no one is doing this? Why does everyone instead prefer a swarmlord, who does... some amazing things every now and then, but really, comparing points per points for what you get, which investment is really better? Depends on the list for sure... I don't know, I still can't justify 270 points for nothing but the chance to send one suicidal unit into enemy ranks in the first turn, and then get a walking melee hive tyrant for later.
I feel like, having ourselves so indulged on kronos efficiency and dimacheron damage and turn 1 engagement potential of the swarmlord, we are overlooking something. What are your thougths on the above, and on other similar things?