Do we REALLY need Kronos for competitive Bugs?

[bestaltan]

So I’m finally shaking off the lockdown doldrums and trying to learn 9th/get back into competitive play. After a few games, I’m starting to get this feeling that our workhorse hive fleet (I run the double dima list currently) is Kraken. The newer (and more competitive) armies out there seem to have multiple ways of stacking on -1 hit buffs, -1 damage buffs, etc, which really hurt the effectiveness of hive guard and exocrines. Kronos is great for putting on the pressure, but it doesn’t influence the movement of the game the way Kraken does. I also am finding that my Kraken units need the CP FAR more than Kronos, and needs more of them. So can a mono-Kraken list with hive guard and exocrines built in still have a competitive edge?

[garg]

If you are taking hive guard and exocrines then going with a Kronos patrol will almost always perform better than pure kraken.

If you are against it in principle that is a valid reason as it doesn't make narrative sense. Or you only have either a 6man HG or single exo it might make sense.

[bestaltan]

Apr 23, 2021 14:36:26 GMT garg said:

If you are taking hive guard and exocrines then going with a Kronos patrol will almost always perform better than pure kraken.

That’s my big question though, will it? Granted, I’ve only actually played a few games competitively since 9th dropped, so my opinion may be way flawed. But here are my thoughts:

1. Symbiostorm, even on a neurothrope, will only go off a little over 50%. That goes up if you are using the resonance barb, but I’m finding that Kraken needs onslaught and paroxysm to go off MUCH more reliably. The barb just works more efficiently on a Kraken caster. Also, symbiostorm really loses efficiency as soon as you run into anything -1 to hit.

2. HQ tax. Running a neurothrope to fill out that Kronos patrol means 95 points fewer on other things, like filling up a second unit of devilgaunts or hormogaunts.

3. Lack of mobility. The only time Kronos is moving is when your exocrine comes in from reserve or is getting into position. This edition seems to really reward movement.

4. CP. Kraken/Kronos with devilgaunts/exocrine in reserve and two adaptations only has 7 CP. pure Kraken has 9. That’s an extra SMA, almost a second VA, extra movement shenanigans, etc. Those extra 2 points really helps Kraken in the long game. In the games I’ve played, I’ve found myself desperately wanting just a couple more points in turns 3 and 4 to get myself out of jams.

[bestaltan]

Hopefully this is all a moot point in the next month or two because we have a new codex. Seeing the wonder of the 9th edition codexes so far, I don’t think I’ve ever hoped for a new codex more.

[No One]

bestaltan said:

1. Symbiostorm, even on a neurothrope, will only go off a little over 50%.

I've got it at 85% with neuro. It's definitely way more than 50%.

3. Lack of mobility. The only time Kronos is moving is when your exocrine comes in from reserve or is getting into position. This edition seems to really reward movement.

This changes...not at all running Kraken. Except maybe I guess you move hive guard occasionally if they're not going to immediately die because they move out of hiding and you don't care about copping the -1.

2. HQ tax. Running a neurothrope to fill out that Kronos patrol means 95 points fewer on other things, like filling up a second unit of devilgaunts or hormogaunts.
...
4. CP. Kraken/Kronos with devilgaunts/exocrine in reserve and two adaptations only has 7 CP. pure Kraken has 9. That’s an extra SMA, almost a second VA, extra movement shenanigans, etc. Those extra 2 points really helps Kraken in the long game. In the games I’ve played, I’ve found myself desperately wanting just a couple more points in turns 3 and 4 to get myself out of jams.

A single round of symbio+Kronos on hive guard is an ~50% increase in hits for hive guard, 75% for an exo. A unit of hive guard double tapping once with Kronos and then a single tap beats out an unbuffed unit double tapping twice. You're going to get even more 'bang for your buck' with an exo and pathogenic. It's not quite as cut and dried once you add the neuro, or consider if using CP elsewhere would be better (rarely, but possible), but when you consider multiple turns of shooting, Kronos wins out pretty handily. And while an exo might be worth for a turn or two and only get to shoot for a turn or two, at which point just going Kraken could be better (i.e. double exo Kraken rather than single exo Kronos: if you consider det costs it's pretty similar), a single unit of hive guard should be shooting for multiple turns. Add on that neuro is more than a symbio bot (unless things are going well, in which case it doesn't need to be more), and gives you shadows as a more marginal benefit...the answer to the question isn't 'no', but you're going to need a more compelling reason to run the standard 'hive guard+exo' package outside Kronos.

[bestaltan]

That’s some pretty good data to prove the point. I’ll say question answered!

[piersonsmuppet]

Cutting the Kronos Patrol would probably be more worth it if you were also cutting the HG or the Exo(s) for something else instead of just trying to save 95pts.

[helphast]

Apr 23, 2021 13:27:31 GMT bestaltan said:

The newer (and more competitive) armies out there seem to have multiple ways of stacking on -1 hit buffs

Seems like you've already had your question answered, but I'd like to point out that a unit can never have more than a +/-1 to hit or to wound modifier applied to them once all buffs and debuffs are stacked on. Adding -3 to hit to a unit via multiple abilities would only amount to a -1 to hit, ignoring two +1 to hit modifiers. Happy gaming, and remember to reroll your 1's to hit when shooting with stationary Kronos units!