Pop up explosives?

[niiai]

What do people think of the pop up explosives? Popping lying in wait. Get within 3", use the stratagem to throw X greandes, and then throw 4d6 explosives S8? Acolytes or bikers. Alternativly have them running out of trucks with 4 explosives.

What are peoples experiences? I am considering it as an alternative.

[Hive Bahamut]

Lying in wait is over 3". You can throw up to 5 from Acolytes or Outriders at a time with Extra Explosives.

This was excellent in 8th when they were 5 points each.

The problem is the CP cost and that Auspex exists, and BS4+.

They aren't bad, but supplementary not a focus.

Trucks Demolitions are.. I find a waste at least. Seldom is something 6" that didn't charge.

Losing Rending sucks too.

If you have a plan they can work.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Mostly, I agree with the above. Grenades need a rework as if you're within 6", you're basically getting into combat.

I think that lying in wait could see limited play with neophytes buffed by an alphus and/or a kelemorph. You can hit on 3s retooling 1s. I think it could work well for clearing chaff but I'd probably just take hand flamers and save the CP from both strategems

[niiai]

I guess I would need to run the average numbers. The problem with acolyte spam (as opposed to neophyte spam that does not really hold up in 9th) is that you are so dependant on the fight phase. It would be nice to be able to destroy something in the shooting phase as well.

As soon as you have 2 units in melee they just use Counter Offensive and with T3 we just crumble. So ideally you want 1 or 3 units in melee. A perfect ambush can help with this. And you can charge from one truck. But you want to eliminate threats as fast as possible. 5 demolition charges does not clog up your a perfect ambush, you can just utelise lying in wait. But does it kill anything worth killing? (Yes, rusted claw (?) can get +1 on their rolls on the bikes, but I am not playing them.)

[asvic]

Assuming you need to take out a t8 3+ target:
5 bikers are 120 pts
EE+LiW: 3cp, 7.29 damage, 2.43 per cp
EE+LiW+DbD: 4 cp, 12.96 damage, 3.24 per cp
Regarding cp expenses, full unit of abberants with hammers fighting twice is 5.8 additional damage per cp, full unit of acolytes (with saws) overthrowing the imperium opressors is 4.594 additional damage per cp.
So it's not the MOST effective cp spending, but 120 pts is still cheap and you can deploy them wherever you need.

[niiai]

What saves or invinerable saves are you math hammering against?

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Apr 19, 2021 12:22:08 GMT niiai said:

What saves or invinerable saves are you math hammering against?

It's noted as T8 3+ save

[killercroc]

It really seems the main factor here is CP. Before the rework GSC had a CP advantage so even if they spammed stratagems they had the wallet to back it up. Now that everyone has the same CP and it's based on game size GSC can no longer afford to throw their CP stack around, which was one of the few things they had going for them. Just looking at it now, GSC need a huge re-work for 9th to not just be a random, wacky & gimmicky army and one that can stand on its own even using different tactics. Before it was all about demo and rock saws, but if your army needs two pieces of wargear on its basic troop to effectively do anything thats a good sign there are some issues. And Ridgerunner mining laser spam isn't the answer cause it's the same thing. Using one unit to pull your whole army cause the rest just doesn't cut it.

Here is to hoping 9th gives them some new tools.

[niiai]

Apr 19, 2021 14:19:31 GMT killercroc said:

It really seems the main factor here is CP. Before the rework GSC had a CP advantage so even if they spammed stratagems they had the wallet to back it up. Now that everyone has the same CP and it's based on game size GSC can no longer afford to throw their CP stack around, which was one of the few things they had going for them. Just looking at it now, GSC need a huge re-work for 9th to not just be a random, wacky & gimmicky army and one that can stand on its own even using different tactics. Before it was all about demo and rock saws, but if your army needs two pieces of wargear on its basic troop to effectively do anything thats a good sign there are some issues. And Ridgerunner mining laser spam isn't the answer cause it's the same thing. Using one unit to pull your whole army cause the rest just doesn't cut it.

Here is to hoping 9th gives them some new tools.

All 9th edition codexes have been good so far. Even special snowflakes like drukhari and death guard knocked it out of the park.

I agree with you that CP is one of the big pillars of GSC that we needed to think about when building. We simply do not have enough CP. I was hoping explosives could be an awnser to some problems.

But the two other problems. One is lack of efficient unit units. The other problem is the enemies counter offensive stratagem.

[kazetanade]

niiai we covered the explosives when you were asking for things to use vs planes.

The answer was that Demobikes are the most cost efficient 1-use answer if you only have 1 vehicle to destroy - they'll do 80% of the work, have something follow up on that.

If there are more than 2 vehicles that need to die (or if its a PBC, or more likely both), then demobikes are a bad answer, and you need Demolisher Cannons from IG detachment, together with RRs (and the maths we did basically tells us if we don't use the RRs mobility, it's worse than Demolishers in all ways).

Its a 4cp burner, its still a decent trick but it's crazy expensive. Auspex being a thing, I'm not sure how to make it work.

[niiai]

Thank you for the reminder. It has been some crazy weeks lately so I do not remember it. And I must admit I did not pay much attention to IG advice outside of the comparison for data collective purposes. I want to do pure GSC.

I guess it is just chasing down white Wales, only to find out it did not live up to the expectation, to find another white wale. I am just throwing things to the board and see what sticks.

The last white wale I want to check out are Twisted Helix acolytes in goliats. I will be picking up my 3rd truck transport today. I got hold of the last 30 acolytes, glued up. (Stil needs some greenstuff here and there. And I use special bases, so waiting for those.) Neophyte spam proved to not hold water.

I just want to winn over my opponent with pure GSC. It is not like he is playing very competitive even.

Forward Ahab! The white wale is waiting.

[killercroc]

Apr 20, 2021 5:54:10 GMT kazetanade said:

niiai we covered the explosives when you were asking for things to use vs planes.

The answer was that Demobikes are the most cost efficient 1-use answer if you only have 1 vehicle to destroy - they'll do 80% of the work, have something follow up on that.

If there are more than 2 vehicles that need to die (or if its a PBC, or more likely both), then demobikes are a bad answer, and you need Demolisher Cannons from IG detachment, together with RRs (and the maths we did basically tells us if we don't use the RRs mobility, it's worse than Demolishers in all ways).

Its a 4cp burner, its still a decent trick but it's crazy expensive. Auspex being a thing, I'm not sure how to make it work.

I wonder if the Exterminator will become a viable AA choice? GW seems to be increasing some of the weaker tier vehicles so they might realize that twin autocannons doesn't make the Russ an anti light/flier. I like this variant but it just doesn't cut it for the cost, Autocannon Heavy teams would grant the same firepower for much cheaper at the cost of durability.

It could just be that the army needs a few new units to help out where it is lacking to make it be able to hold its own. You can compare it pretty close to guard but I think their orders and access to more special/heavy weapons all while costing 1 point less is what really gives them the edge. It's not that I think a gorilla army wouldn't work in 40ks game play style, it's just that a gorilla army that relies on CP spam to do things doesn't work. Maybe GSC needs like what SoB got with their miracle dice, but instead they're disruption dice? You can make your opponent replace dice they roll with your pool to show all the GSC tactics and sabotaging. Idk could be a tool, but something more than spending 120+ points nad 4 CP to get a slightly good chance to take out a single vehicle.

GW will hopefully lean more into the gorilla style in 9th and not more towards pitched battle rules like Guard have. I don't think T1 infiltrating will be too powerful if it changes to be like Marine scouts, deploy 9" away from the enemy units or deployment zone would fit the theme and let units with demo bombs make use of them. If a Leman Russ can shoot a battlecannon 72" on T1 Idk why a unit with a similar stat grenade shouldn't have some chance to use it T1 as well, especially with it being 6" and on a T3 5+ body.

[niiai]

Loads of good ideas. Irrelevant for the current codex discussion.