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Post by wormlord666 on Mar 29, 2021 10:06:30 GMT
I got 3 games with the McDougal/Lennon double Dimas in and a few with 1 Dima and an extra flyrant. So far I have lost most games although tight games against tough lists. (Mortarion, PBC and Dreads/New Drukhari/CSM soup)
I watched Lennon play it on stream but still struggle. Compared to the old Stealer-sling it is even more vulnerble to bad choices. Lot of things kills a Dima in 1 round and it is hard to hide them. This creates troubles. At first I deployed them for a T1 charge and hoped to go first or at least bate opponents out and have one Dima left to counter with. This turned into a trading game and I ended up running out of units before my opponents.
Then I deployed far back, hidden, hoping to counterstrike. This ended up with me loosing the primary mission.
My takeaways is when you get the Dima in, charge everything you can get in to, pump him up with adrenal surge(?) (reroll wounds) and fight twice. He will kill stuff, especially vehicles. He will then die.
Then you need to have a second wave. Swarmlord, the other Dima, the shooting battery needs to follow up.
The devbomb was crucial in my games but needs some thinking and planning. They kill poxwalkers, eldars, skirmishunits good, but they die so fast and if you reserve them, they can get screened.
So I struggle with the list. I’ll continue trying but it is a hard list to play. CP management is difficult and I loose steam early on (almost like the old Acolyte/stealer list where I spent 17 Cp in 2 turns😅).
Any experiences from the Hive Mind that can help me?
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Post by wormlord666 on Mar 29, 2021 12:52:39 GMT
One more thing: with drukhari and poxwalkers around I’m consisering making the flyrant a dakkarant. The MRC are wasted and he can’t fight anything relevant nowdays. (A succubus get 14 attacks plus lots of buffs, a flyrant 4+ stil...)
Better then to keep him casting onslought and clearing screens and what ever falls out of venoms and raiders with 24 s6 shots.
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Post by zimko on Mar 29, 2021 16:06:40 GMT
I've had similar experiences. Plenty of close games but mostly losses. The devgants feels like the best tool in the list. Especially in kraken, if you can deploy them behing obscuring then you can double advance them to a good spot, give them onslaught, and double shoot them. That gives the Dimas a chance to charge better targets. But as you say, the Dimas die too easily. I've been able to use 1 Dima effectively but the second usually gets wasted. So I'm changing up the list.
I'm now trading out a Dima for a Barbed Hierodule. I'm also trading out the Exocrine and downgrading the Flyrant to a Broodlord to add a 2nd Barbed Hierodule and ruding the hormagaunts to 10 man units. The Broodlord takes res barb and onslaught. This gives me a lot more shooting, and the hierodules are pretty tough. It also reduces my monster count from 5 to 4 so big game doesn't give up as many points.
A lot of the boards I've been playing on like to put dense forests in the middle. This makes symbiostorm basically useless. Also, if I go with Barbed Hierodules, I'll want to move them which means Kronos does nothing. So I'm thinking about changing the patrol to Jorm and put the devgants in it. Then use the jorm psychic power to reroll hits on the devgant bomb, and also give 1+ saves to the hierodules.
I've also thought about going mono-Kraken to get more CP because CP management is tough with a list that wants to double shoot and double attack. This all requires more playtime to sort out.
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Mar 29, 2021 17:14:53 GMT
I think that at this stage in the game, the Dima is a known quantity so its efficacy goes way down. I've been toying with some lists that include a Malanthrope to give them more than a snowball's chance in hell of surviving the first turn. But it might be just way too many points.
I like Zimko's idea of Jorm for the Hierodules. It definitely seems way more effective now than it used to be, especially with the Dev Gaunts. I'm reminded of that one Australian list that had a Malanthrope, two barbed Hierodules, and a Maleceptor.
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Post by wormlord666 on Mar 29, 2021 19:47:26 GMT
The devgaunts beting so good makes me consider the old trygon/devgaunt bomb or som other jormundaggr transport solution.
The idea of having something (Dimas/hiveguards) to open transports and them devgaunts to shoot whatever falls out is good, but there are motvind parts. I so not on Barbès h and haven`t finishen painting my dimas yet so I`ll probabiy pass that idea for now, but it looks solid.
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Post by irondreddknight on Mar 30, 2021 16:49:44 GMT
I'm currently converting 2 more Dima's in prep for a 3 Dimachaeron list. What do you run alongside 2 or 3 Dimachaerons?
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Post by hiveoverall on Mar 30, 2021 19:08:56 GMT
I've had similar experiences. Plenty of close games but mostly losses. The devgants feels like the best tool in the list. Especially in kraken, if you can deploy them behing obscuring then you can double advance them to a good spot, give them onslaught, and double shoot them. That gives the Dimas a chance to charge better targets. But as you say, the Dimas die too easily. I've been able to use 1 Dima effectively but the second usually gets wasted. So I'm changing up the list. I'm now trading out a Dima for a Barbed Hierodule. I'm also trading out the Exocrine and downgrading the Flyrant to a Broodlord to add a 2nd Barbed Hierodule and ruding the hormagaunts to 10 man units. The Broodlord takes res barb and onslaught. This gives me a lot more shooting, and the hierodules are pretty tough. It also reduces my monster count from 5 to 4 so big game doesn't give up as many points. A lot of the boards I've been playing on like to put dense forests in the middle. This makes symbiostorm basically useless. Also, if I go with Barbed Hierodules, I'll want to move them which means Kronos does nothing. So I'm thinking about changing the patrol to Jorm and put the devgants in it. Then use the jorm psychic power to reroll hits on the devgant bomb, and also give 1+ saves to the hierodules. I've also thought about going mono-Kraken to get more CP because CP management is tough with a list that wants to double shoot and double attack. This all requires more playtime to sort out. So you would keep 6 hive guards along with the two barbed H ? |
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Post by zimko on Mar 30, 2021 19:58:31 GMT
I've had similar experiences. Plenty of close games but mostly losses. The devgants feels like the best tool in the list. Especially in kraken, if you can deploy them behing obscuring then you can double advance them to a good spot, give them onslaught, and double shoot them. That gives the Dimas a chance to charge better targets. But as you say, the Dimas die too easily. I've been able to use 1 Dima effectively but the second usually gets wasted. So I'm changing up the list. I'm now trading out a Dima for a Barbed Hierodule. I'm also trading out the Exocrine and downgrading the Flyrant to a Broodlord to add a 2nd Barbed Hierodule and ruding the hormagaunts to 10 man units. The Broodlord takes res barb and onslaught. This gives me a lot more shooting, and the hierodules are pretty tough. It also reduces my monster count from 5 to 4 so big game doesn't give up as many points. A lot of the boards I've been playing on like to put dense forests in the middle. This makes symbiostorm basically useless. Also, if I go with Barbed Hierodules, I'll want to move them which means Kronos does nothing. So I'm thinking about changing the patrol to Jorm and put the devgants in it. Then use the jorm psychic power to reroll hits on the devgant bomb, and also give 1+ saves to the hierodules. I've also thought about going mono-Kraken to get more CP because CP management is tough with a list that wants to double shoot and double attack. This all requires more playtime to sort out. So you would keep 6 hive guards along with the two barbed H ? Yes. That's my current 'testing' list. I have 3 lists I'm looking at but the main one is still Kraken battalion with Kronos patrol. Kraken -HQ- Broodlord: Onslaught, Res Barb, Warlord Swarmlord: Catalyst, Paroxysm -Troops- 10 Hormagaunts 10 Hormagaunts 30 Devgants -Elites- Lictor Lictor -Fast Attack- Dimachaeron Kronos -HQ- Neurothrope: Symbiostorm -Troops- 3 Warriors: A. Glands, Talons, Talons -Elites- 6 Hive Guard -Heavy Support- Barbed Hierodule Barbed Hierodule Having 1 Dima that you can dump all your movement stratagems and powers into still gives you that massive threat that your opponent will be afraid of during deployment. So I think that is still key, but now I'm not paying another 230 pts for the threat of a turn 1 charge. I also still have Hive Guard with potential symbiostorm and double shooting. But now I also have those big beasts, that can deploy way in the back out of range, and still have range to threaten anything not obscured. They will make my opponent play even more defensively, and provide me with a heavy long-range presence beyond turn 2 when the Dimas would normally be spent. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Mar 30, 2021 21:03:09 GMT
zimko, why not put the lichtors in the kronos patrol so you could deep strike them and use the deepest shadow strategem?
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Post by zimko on Mar 30, 2021 21:18:34 GMT
zimko, why not put the lichtors in the kronos patrol so you could deep strike them and use the deepest shadow strategem? I can only fit one in the patrol and I don't feel like keeping track of which is in which. It's silly but I think it's a minor upgrade to have one in kronos. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Mar 30, 2021 21:54:51 GMT
Makes sense! I've definitely made list building decisions solely to help me keep track in a game. I couldn't remember how many elites could go in a patrol.
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Post by kazetanade on Apr 1, 2021 2:08:47 GMT
I got 3 games with the McDougal/Lennon double Dimas in and a few with 1 Dima and an extra flyrant. So far I have lost most games although tight games against tough lists. (Mortarion, PBC and Dreads/New Drukhari/CSM soup) I watched Lennon play it on stream but still struggle. Compared to the old Stealer-sling it is even more vulnerble to bad choices. Lot of things kills a Dima in 1 round and it is hard to hide them. This creates troubles. At first I deployed them for a T1 charge and hoped to go first or at least bate opponents out and have one Dima left to counter with. This turned into a trading game and I ended up running out of units before my opponents. Then I deployed far back, hidden, hoping to counterstrike. This ended up with me loosing the primary mission. My takeaways is when you get the Dima in, charge everything you can get in to, pump him up with adrenal surge(?) (reroll wounds) and fight twice. He will kill stuff, especially vehicles. He will then die. Then you need to have a second wave. Swarmlord, the other Dima, the shooting battery needs to follow up. The devbomb was crucial in my games but needs some thinking and planning. They kill poxwalkers, eldars, skirmishunits good, but they die so fast and if you reserve them, they can get screened. So I struggle with the list. I’ll continue trying but it is a hard list to play. CP management is difficult and I loose steam early on (almost like the old Acolyte/stealer list where I spent 17 Cp in 2 turns😅). Any experiences from the Hive Mind that can help me? The Dima list much like the GS Sling is essentially a disruption list. You still need the consistent damage from shooting to deal with the enemy army, and to score while the army is doing its distraction game. Its a tempo list that does tend to run out of steam - don't grind it, and target prioritize heavily. You are meant to lose the Dimas - either take most of the enemy's shooting before going down so everything else is still safe, or go down dragging them with you. Other than that its pretty much practice on how to react in specific scenarios. |
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Apr 1, 2021 4:00:31 GMT
So you would keep 6 hive guards along with the two barbed H ? Yes. That's my current 'testing' list. I have 3 lists I'm looking at but the main one is still Kraken battalion with Kronos patrol. Kraken -HQ- Broodlord: Onslaught, Res Barb, Warlord Swarmlord: Catalyst, Paroxysm -Troops- 10 Hormagaunts 10 Hormagaunts 30 Devgants -Elites- Lictor Lictor -Fast Attack- Dimachaeron Kronos -HQ- Neurothrope: Symbiostorm -Troops- 3 Warriors: A. Glands, Talons, Talons -Elites- 6 Hive Guard -Heavy Support- Barbed Hierodule Barbed Hierodule Having 1 Dima that you can dump all your movement stratagems and powers into still gives you that massive threat that your opponent will be afraid of during deployment. So I think that is still key, but now I'm not paying another 230 pts for the threat of a turn 1 charge. I also still have Hive Guard with potential symbiostorm and double shooting. But now I also have those big beasts, that can deploy way in the back out of range, and still have range to threaten anything not obscured. They will make my opponent play even more defensively, and provide me with a heavy long-range presence beyond turn 2 when the Dimas would normally be spent. Love this list. Would be great to hear more about the secondaries you choose, general strategy, Adaptive Physiologies, and so on. |
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Post by zimko on Apr 1, 2021 14:28:12 GMT
Adaptives are dermic symbiosis for the Hierodules.
Secondaries: This list I think has a decent case for while we stand. The 3 most expensive units are Barbed Hierodules and Hive Guard, all of which are going to be playing cagey. Other than that, scramblers and engage are both still achievable for the list. And against MSU armies like drakhari, grind them down is a good option instead of while we stand.
General Strategy is to outrange as much of the heavy shooting as I can on deployment. With kraken double advance, swarmlord and onslaught, the Dima has an insane threat range so if my opponent wants to shoot him or the Barbed Hierodules then I want to make him come to the center of the board to do it. Then I can punish him. The Barbed Hierodules can work their way towards objectives and shoot whatever they can. I want them to just be solid bricks that are hard to shift off an objective and provide shooting support from afar.
The devgant bomb can go into strategic reserves, but I've had a couple games where I start them on the board. Against the new Drakhari I started them on the board (hammer and anvil style deployment) and against Chaos who had 30 cultists protecting oblits. I lost first turn, but neither list can reach the devgants on turn 1, so they just move to objectives. Then the devgants use the kraken double advance to move 18". I then cast onslaught on them, and pump out 180 shots on all the fragile drakhari units, or all the cultists for chaos. Against the cultist list, this left the Oblits exposed to Hive Guard (he was planning on making them untargetable). Against the Drakhari, I popped 2 Venoms and killed 3 small units of wyches/wracks. It also gave me a solid body of 30 models on the center objective in a forest. The devgants in Kraken add this little strategy to your toolbelt, and is the main reason I haven't put them into a different hive fleet.
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Post by bestaltan on Apr 11, 2021 23:44:20 GMT
I wanted to chime into the discussion after talking to my local group yesterday. If you watch the battle reports for the original list, the Art of War gang use a couple pieces of complete LoS blocking terrain (I think it’s considered infinitely tall) on the tables, usually in or close to deployment zones. That seems to be the trend in tournaments as they gear back up , to prevent alpha striking and allow both players a tactical game. It gives each player the chance to completely hide.
Dimachaerons absolutely LOVE having that sort of LoS blocking terrain, and it seems that competitive play is moving towards having that on the table.
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