Haven't played since October 2019. about to start TTS

[iniquity]

I love that you two have been on this forum that long. 😂

[Hive Bahamut]

Holy hell 2012 is when I joined too. No wonder why we are so salty. Or is that just me?

Tabletop Simulator has been on my wishlist for a bit but I haven't commit. I wouldn't be able to not just min/max, as it leaves little creative expression in armies. I am lucky though and even though my group is small I have been playing consistently.

New books almost auto win with their secondaries, but it is possible to pull ahead. Grind them down and Ass are pretty much guarantees against Nids/GSC so if they have a 3rd pick from their book you better remove all their Primary scoring.

[mattblowers]

Mar 24, 2021 13:42:56 GMT kazetanade said:

I feel like I've been hearing that same story every few months since I first joined the Hive. I think it was 2014? Or 15?

It's a bit different this time. Look at the last Chapter Tactics Podcast: Chapter Tactics #198​: How to Win in 9th Without Killing a Single Unit

Oh joy. Any WARgames that can do this is no longer a WARgame. It's something, but not a wargame.

Link below.

link

[yoritomo]

2012? A bunch of late comers is the way I see it.

I don't agree with matt. I don't think you need to kill your opponent's models to be a wargame. I don't think it's good for the game, but that doesn't stop it from being a wargame.

[mattblowers]

Mar 25, 2021 1:19:53 GMT yoritomo said:

I don't agree with matt. I don't think you need to kill your opponent's models to be a wargame. I don't think it's good for the game, but that doesn't stop it from being a wargame.

It's 2021, no one forces you to have a correct opinion.

Can you have a fight without physical contact? Rain without things getting wet?

A wargame is a game where we pretend our little man dollies are warring. If there is no killing of models it's not really 'war', it's a game, but it's not a wargame. You're ignoring half the phases of the game because the mechanics are so broken by their own rules.

At least we both agree it's not good for the game.

[infornography]

Wow, I just checked and I've been a part of the Hive for over a decade. Old man Yori is well over a decade and a half.

There are definitely things I like and dislike about 9th edition. Balance is solidly in the dislike category.

[kazetanade]

Mar 24, 2021 23:32:24 GMT mattblowers said:

Mar 24, 2021 13:42:56 GMT kazetanade said:

I feel like I've been hearing that same story every few months since I first joined the Hive. I think it was 2014? Or 15?

It's a bit different this time. Look at the last Chapter Tactics Podcast: Chapter Tactics #198​: How to Win in 9th Without Killing a Single Unit

Oh joy. Any WARgames that can do this is no longer a WARgame. It's something, but not a wargame.

Link below.

link

And on the other end we were just discussing complaints and crazy killy games.

I'm not old enough to be harping on about why the games bad and reminiscing - I haven't felt as optimistic about the hobby since I first started, and I'm good with the games I'm getting now. It at least feels like its a pilot problem more than a "I didn't buy the latest book" problem. In 7th when I started it felt decisively like I bought the wrong damn army, so the fact I feel like I can still have a game with Nids (even if not with my gsc) is a step up from when I started.

Granted, I'm on the Necrons train for now...

[yoritomo]

Mar 25, 2021 13:02:37 GMT infornography said:

Wow, I just checked and I've been a part of the Hive for over a decade. Old man Yori is well over a decade and a half.

Yes, my account gets its drivers license this year. The missus and I are very proud.

Mar 25, 2021 12:48:09 GMT mattblowers said:

Mar 25, 2021 1:19:53 GMT yoritomo said:

I don't agree with matt. I don't think you need to kill your opponent's models to be a wargame. I don't think it's good for the game, but that doesn't stop it from being a wargame.

It's 2021, no one forces you to have a correct opinion.

Can you have a fight without physical contact? Rain without things getting wet?

A wargame is a game where we pretend our little man dollies are warring. If there is no killing of models it's not really 'war', it's a game, but it's not a wargame. You're ignoring half the phases of the game because the mechanics are so broken by their own rules.

At least we both agree it's not good for the game.

I'm sorry, but my real world experience in fighting wars does not mesh with your assessment. It's not about who kills who, but who is in control of the battlefield at the end of the day. It's one of the reasons I prefer end of game scoring over progressive scoring, but that's another discussion.

For a real world example look at the American military doctrine from 1994-2013. The whole goal was for the US to kill bad guys with minimal loss of American lives. The result was an over dependence on air strike. And while the objective was met (we killed a lot of bad guys with virtually no loss of American lives), the bad guys were still in control of the ground when the dust settled and were able to use that to create anti-American sentiment. The end result being the 9/11 attacks.

The reason no kill victories fell bad is because it turns the game into Pyrrhic Victory Simulator 40K. I know the game requires a suspension of disbelief, but nobody can convince me that any army can sustain losses without inflicting any losses in return and ultimately win the war. Win or lose, how do you walk away from a game where you did nothing and still feel like you did well? Especially if you're playing something like space marines who are supposed to be the greatest fighting force that mankind has ever made and the loss of one man is supposed to like losing a battalion of regular men.

You have hit the nail on the head though. The real point of the game is to interact with your opponent. If I wanted to play a game by myself I could just hop on my PS4 and play something. Anything that makes me interact with my opponent less is bad for the game. The cumulation of this is the dark angel army they talked about in the podcast. All it has to do is sit there in it's deployment zone and it wins the game. The onus is on me to take their objectives or I lose. If we both did nothing an tie that would be okay, but if we both do nothing I lose. And because I have to make the move it allows my opponent to prepare a defense in depth to make it harder to take those objectives, which makes the game less fun for me.

[mattblowers]

Mar 25, 2021 15:23:21 GMT yoritomo said:

You have hit the nail on the head though. The real point of the game is to interact with your opponent. If I wanted to play a game by myself I could just hop on my PS4 and play something. Anything that makes me interact with my opponent less is bad for the game. The cumulation of this is the dark angel army they talked about in the podcast. All it has to do is sit there in it's deployment zone and it wins the game. The onus is on me to take their objectives or I lose. If we both did nothing an tie that would be okay, but if we both do nothing I lose. And because I have to make the move it allows my opponent to prepare a defense in depth to make it harder to take those objectives, which makes the game less fun for me.

You have said what I was trying to say but much better. I like to play a wargame, emphasis on both parts of the word: war and game. I don't want a war simulator. I don't want just a game. Using your PS4 analogy, when I play Madden I want big scoring games, I don't want to be able to kick a field goal (or have my opponent do so) in the first quarter and then grind out a defensive 3-0 game. I don't want to watch game film and analyze routes. I want to have a chuck fest where we both score tons and see epic plays.

In wargaming I don't want to worry about supply chain logistics (sorry, your landraider can't move, it's out of gas and your Leman Russ ran out of ammo) or how to care for and evac our casualties. To some extent it's all a compromise where we just get to play the 'juicy' parts of the battle. Some of my best memories are when the 'impossible' happens: Azreal punking a Riptide, unit gargoyles that lost 2 models deepstrikinig into rough terrain, failing leadership, and then running off the table with double sixes. I don't really remember who won or lost those games (I think I may have lost both) but they were fun and dynamic with tons of interaction. A game where you can build a list that simply wins by not interacting isn't what I'm looking for.

I may find that this edition is actually better in person than the meta currently looks like. But the current tales I'm hearing coupled with my lack of human interaction with TTS (and the tactile feel of rolling dice: I LOVE the feel of dice in my hand) and the last in person experiences I had right before COVID is less than jazzing me up. I really miss the interaction with my gaming friends though.

[kazetanade]

Tbf, most lists and missions do force you to interact with the opponent or put yourself at risk with the opponent. The only ones I know that don't are the DA one and a lesser extent the Necron one, no one else can play such an uninteractive game.

To be painfully honest, what we're seeing in the DA is a weaker, less punishing version of the unkillable deathstars in 7th. There's no more Invis - there's no more rerollable 4++ saves, there's no more cross faction SuperFriends setups. It can be killed, just with a lot of disproportionate effort. But it plays the same. And its still slow, and can be played around tactically, having some pretty clear weaknesses.

In any case, that's just my 2 cents.

[hiveoverall]

I am playing DA atm (started the army in 6th ed, termis are finally good !) and the ravenwing turns out to be actually more comp than the deathwing. As recent tourney results have shown.
Deathwing has too many weaknesses, the worst autolosing when 30 kraken hormagaunts turn 1 triple move to form a line (terrain can save the DA player against this tactic like 1 in 5 times) and body blocking them in their Deploy zone. The same can be achieved with many other infiltrating units.

DW is good overall don't get me wrong, but IMHO Ravenwing is even better (and more interactive). I prefer taking my deathwing because I love the visual aspect of it, but I do feel bad for my opponents sometimes when the super apoc (who needs a nerf so badly) brings back a dude a heals another, kills which were so hard for my opponent to achieve.

[vejby]

I joined in 2014 - time flies when you have a horde to paint.

I have not gotten into TTS yet even though it is the only way to play at the moment. Right now, I think Covid is killing my desire for 40K and even plastic dudesmen in general. 40K is not a 'nice' game to get into anymore and if there is not the spectacle of beautifully painted models and terrain on the table, there is zero incentive for me to play, apart from being with friends and that can be done with much less hassle than what playing 40K has become.

As sad as it is, I think Covid has killed the hobby for me.

[hiveoverall]

Mar 29, 2021 10:04:46 GMT vejby said:

I joined in 2014 - time flies when you have a horde to paint.

I have not gotten into TTS yet even though it is the only way to play at the moment. Right now, I think Covid is killing my desire for 40K and even plastic dudesmen in general. 40K is not a 'nice' game to get into anymore and if there is not the spectacle of beautifully painted models and terrain on the table, there is zero incentive for me to play, apart from being with friends and that can be done with much less hassle than what playing 40K has become.

As sad as it is, I think Covid has killed the hobby for me.

I sympathize with you, but perhaps give it another go once covid blows over ? I won't lie 9th isn't that easy to get into (easier than some other editions, not as easy as say 5th though, for sure !), but it is quite enjoyable honestly after 2-3 games. At least before you sell your stuff and all

[LordPathos]

I joined the Hive in 2008. BOW BEFORE MY AGE!

[vejby]

Mar 29, 2021 11:51:09 GMT hiveoverall said:

Mar 29, 2021 10:04:46 GMT vejby said:

I joined in 2014 - time flies when you have a horde to paint.

I have not gotten into TTS yet even though it is the only way to play at the moment. Right now, I think Covid is killing my desire for 40K and even plastic dudesmen in general. 40K is not a 'nice' game to get into anymore and if there is not the spectacle of beautifully painted models and terrain on the table, there is zero incentive for me to play, apart from being with friends and that can be done with much less hassle than what playing 40K has become.

As sad as it is, I think Covid has killed the hobby for me.

I sympathize with you, but perhaps give it another go once covid blows over ? I won't lie 9th isn't that easy to get into (easier than some other editions, not as easy as say 5th though, for sure !), but it is quite enjoyable honestly after 2-3 games. At least before you sell your stuff and all

I don't think I'll ever sell my stuff, too much time invested in painting, but I might just give up on the game. As others have said, it is often not an enjoyable experience to play it and then the point of playing is lost.