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Post by hivedrone on Jan 18, 2021 15:17:26 GMT
My play group has recently increased its power level. Recently I have had to fight Knights, wraithknights and riptides. I have no idea what I am supposed to do against this drastic increase in power level. I have thought maybe hierodules or dimachaerons would help but that’s a lot of money. My good fellow members of the hive mind WTF am I supposed to do?
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Post by beetlejuice on Jan 18, 2021 17:53:17 GMT
Hive guard with impalers, make em kronos, cast symbiostorm, use single minded annihilation stratagem. Top it off with mortal wounds.
For riptides kill the drones first.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 19, 2021 5:31:45 GMT
Knights score poorly. Have a HG unit will allow you to constantly put pressure on the Knights, and the rest is just outscored them on primaries. OOE is also a great missle on average rolls, since you can Fight, Die, then Fight when Die to repeat, and the double fight should be enough to total a Knight - if not, one HG volley will kill it thereafter or prior. Remember to reroll wounds strategem as well to squeeze as much damage out as possible from Old One Eye.
For Riptide, just kill drones first.
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Post by hivemind03 on Jan 19, 2021 13:42:40 GMT
Riptides can also be touched in combat to severely limit their options as "Fly" no longer allows them to fall back and shoot.
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Post by Adephagia on Jan 19, 2021 19:31:00 GMT
Hive guard with impalers.... Or for the BIG vehicle lists, if you have more than a couple of them, just field your hive guard (10pts cheaper) with shockcannons for their mortal wound synergy.
Shockcannon
24" Assault D3, S7, AP-1, D3
Blast. If the target is a VEHICLE and you make a wound roll of 4+, the target suffers 1 mortal wound in addition to any other damage. If you make a wound roll of 6+, inflict D3 mortal wounds instead.
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Post by gorsameth on Jan 20, 2021 17:34:24 GMT
Hive guard with impalers.... Or for the BIG vehicle lists, if you have more than a couple of them, just field your hive guard (10pts cheaper) with shockcannons for their mortal wound synergy.
Shockcannon
24" Assault D3, S7, AP-1, D3
Blast. If the target is a VEHICLE and you make a wound roll of 4+, the target suffers 1 mortal wound in addition to any other damage. If you make a wound roll of 6+, inflict D3 mortal wounds instead.
Random shots means less reliability S7 instead of 8 means your wounding on 5's instead of 4's. Less AP so 4+ saves instead of 5+ (assuming no rotate shields) Means you do half the damage before counting the possible mortal wound. And the biggest issue. Needing LoS, so your hiveguard are basically guaranteed to die. Even against a pure Knight/vehicle list I would rather have Impalers then shockcannons. |
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Post by purestrain on Jan 20, 2021 17:38:45 GMT
Or for the BIG vehicle lists, if you have more than a couple of them, just field your hive guard (10pts cheaper) with shockcannons for their mortal wound synergy.
Shockcannon
24" Assault D3, S7, AP-1, D3
Blast. If the target is a VEHICLE and you make a wound roll of 4+, the target suffers 1 mortal wound in addition to any other damage. If you make a wound roll of 6+, inflict D3 mortal wounds instead.
Random shots means less reliability S7 instead of 8 means your wounding on 5's instead of 4's. Less AP so 4+ saves instead of 5+ (assuming no rotate shields) Means you do half the damage before counting the possible mortal wound. And the biggest issue. Needing LoS, so your hiveguard are basically guaranteed to die. Even against a pure Knight/vehicle list I would rather have Impalers then shockcannons. Those MWs are on a 4+, and d3 on 6 the average shots should yield one six and that to be a two, so around 3-5 additional mortal wounds per 3 man pack, 6 is obv double, and SMA makes them very scary. |
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Post by autoxidation on Jan 20, 2021 18:04:19 GMT
Or for the BIG vehicle lists, if you have more than a couple of them, just field your hive guard (10pts cheaper) with shockcannons for their mortal wound synergy. Shockcannon
24" Assault D3, S7, AP-1, D3
Blast. If the target is a VEHICLE and you make a wound roll of 4+, the target suffers 1 mortal wound in addition to any other damage. If you make a wound roll of 6+, inflict D3 mortal wounds instead.
Random shots means less reliability S7 instead of 8 means your wounding on 5's instead of 4's. Less AP so 4+ saves instead of 5+ (assuming no rotate shields) Means you do half the damage before counting the possible mortal wound. And the biggest issue. Needing LoS, so your hiveguard are basically guaranteed to die. Even against a pure Knight/vehicle list I would rather have Impalers then shockcannons. Mortal Wounds are very strong, and Shock Cannons are absolutely better against vehicle targets than Impalers in terms of damage. I would personally still opt for Impalers since they are better against non-vehicle targets, have more range, and can be fired outside of line of sight. For example, 1 Impaler Cannon vs a T8/3+ vehicle will deal an average of 0.89 damage, or 50.63 points per damage dealt. 1 Shock Cannon will deal 1.33 damage to the same target, or 26.25 points per damage dealt. Shock Cannons are almost twice as efficient as Impalers vs vehicle targets. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 21, 2021 5:55:34 GMT
A 6 man unit plopped infront of a Knight will deal approx 18damage after MWs and SMA. If you roll a bit hotter, you might kill it. But after testing it back in 8th in the Knight meta, I eventually dumped it because it was a pain to deliver, they always got wiped after coming down, they never finish the target, and sometimes you just roll so atrocious on a d3 then d3 that basically you just waste nearly 300pts.
For ref:
6 xd3 is 12 shots average. Hitting on 3+ means 8 hits (Jorm to deliver so no Kronos Symbiostorm). Wounding on 5s means 2-3 saves. 4 of them are MWs, with 1-2 being d3s for 2. So around 5-7MWs (and Knights get a strategem for 5+++ vs mortal wounds), then 2-3 saves which gets 1-2 fails for 2-4 damage.
So each volley gets you an average of 7-11 damage.
Shock cannons are a classic example of why efficient =/= effective. Like autoxidation points out, they're twice more efficient per point compared to Impaler Guards. However, they're still not particularly effective at killing Knights, requiring a dedicated transport + cp, a double fire strat, and potential suicide after the drop. Impalers just keep shooting all game.
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Post by purestrain on Jan 21, 2021 16:35:15 GMT
Literally swarmy sling a Murderous size increased Stonecrusher carnifex, they reroll hits vs vechicles and with the adaptation they'll be str 15 (x2 +1) ap-4 (important) SIX Damage (5vs vehicle +1 from size)
8/10 times you'll kill it in your first combat with reroll wound stratagem
Forgot it also gets d6 mortals vs vehicles and monsters on a 4+. Knight killing machine
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Post by No One on Jan 22, 2021 1:00:01 GMT
To add on the shock vs impaler: if you run impaler with Kronos for the rerolls/symbiostorm (symbio shock is possible, but as Kaz pointed out difficult with delivery, and expecting ever getting the rr1s is...ambitious. Lurking maw does help, but isn't as good as both Kronos buffs), they beat out shock with two firings. By a reasonable amount, depending on buffs. Now, less appealing to use double tap on (i.e. you're looking at 4 CP rather than 2 CP, but definitely aren't doubling damage), but you're looking at similar damage with 3 net rounds of firing (i.e. 2 turns and a single double tap). If you bump it up to 3 rounds and a single double tap, you're well ahead.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 23, 2021 12:08:59 GMT
This golden rule always applies:
- NO MATTER HOW EXPENSIVE THE SHOOTING, if it gets MORE THAN ONE TURN of SHOOTING, it will ALMOST ALWAYS MAKE ITS VALUE BACK.
Therefore, if we're debating on the potential value trade of a shooting unit in general, regardless of which one, the ability for it to shoot and take/avoid damage and continue shooting thereafter is extremely important to its being effective. Anything that can outlive the other option is almost always superior.
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Post by pkripper on Jan 28, 2021 0:02:00 GMT
A Dimacheron with murderous size is a legitimate knight killer. Re rolling all attacks at strength 9 ap -4 damage d3+4 for a minimum of 5 1cp to re roll wounds. My last game vs khorn berserkers and knights my dimacheron killed a knight and some berserkers turn 1 cost me 4 cp but well worth it. I even managed to eat a berserker and get the 5+ FNP. He went on jumping around the board killing a land raider then a pesky objective holding rhino. 100% won me the game swarmy slingshot is recommended so is going first.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jan 28, 2021 5:38:41 GMT
Well sometimes having a knight-light can keep the evil at bay. I would avoid a heavy eat before bed and make sure to use the lavatory too. Indigestion can cause Knightmares.
Swarmlord+ OOE OR Dima OR in case of GSC one of the few tools left, apply 20 Acolytes w/saws until problem ceases.
Knights were never really an issue with FotHM, but screening can be.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 28, 2021 8:53:45 GMT
I think forgot to touch on the Wraithknight here, but the WK is strictly inferior to the Knight in most cases, as its a designated vehicle killer with swingy damage dice.(but can be mitigated in their kit)
Shock cannon does not work on Wraithknights and Riptides just FYI.
IMO the most you'd have to look out for with a WK is their tap dancing prowess, because they could come out with 21A suddenly. And their 4 shot anti monster cannons if you have vehicles/monsters. For killing it, I have to foreword its marginally harder because it has a 4++ in both melee and ranged (although I think they lost that since its a vigilus thing that's not legal anymore), but its not likely to kill your Dimachaeron so you can double fight it.
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