9th EditioShock cannons Vs impaler cannons on hive guard.

[hiveoverall]

What I don’t understand is why GW never was able to cost both options with a wide enough gap between. Impaler guards should cost at least 12 ppm more than shock guards. Also, the oop models have the best option. So It doesn’t even make sense from a « sell the kit » perspective

[niiai]

For the people who think that shock cannons underperforms VS I paler cannons run the numbers. VS anything vehicle they outperform over i paler cannons damage for points quite high. (They even outperform the rupture cannon VS T8. And rupture cannon is better then inpaler cannon or exoshrine VS T8.)

Shock cannon > anything vehicle
Impalor cannon > T8
Exishrine/Impalor cannon > most other big things

Maiby the acid spray is somewhere in there. I do not remember.

[gigasnail]

ignoring the LoS and range, sure.

[No One]

niiai said:

For the people who think that shock cannons underperforms VS I paler cannons run the numbers.

Yes. Impalers are better per point against non-vehicle targets i.e. the majority of the meta. Not by much unless both the extra strength and AP are relevant (e.g. 0.158 wounds per point against T5 3+ for impaler vs 0.152 for shock), but shock aren't even better DPS outside of vehicles/targets you generally don't want to shoot them at. It's close enough that you'd probably run shock over impaler if impaler didn't have the massive advantages of range and ignores LoS, because it's so much better against vehicles, and you're cheaper for getting shot at. But they do, so...yeah.

[niiai]

Do anybody have the actual number? Of cost per wound? Because I remember it as massive. And they have dropped in price since then. Actually a lot has changed since then. 35 points is very cheap. And the damage is better then inpaler cannons. And cou can combine that with the shoot twice stratagem. Even 105 point investment could be a potent damage source.

[kazetanade]

Jan 17, 2021 9:58:27 GMT niiai said:

Do anybody have the actual number? Of cost per wound? Because I remember it as massive. And they have dropped in price since then. Actually a lot has changed since then. 35 points is very cheap. And the damage is better then inpaler cannons. And cou can combine that with the shoot twice stratagem. Even 105 point investment could be a potent damage source.

I have live testing experience running both Impalers and Shockguard against a multitude of profiles in 8th - the shockguard on average does only a little less damage than the Impalers against targets out in the open, with its major point cost difference makes it a considerable tool in the box. However, I ran into some real life issues with them -

1. Walking them across the board in 8th meant they don't get to shoot, period. They needed to be delivered to target hence always need an escort, the cheapest being Jormungandr Ravs, and this necessitates you taking Jorm as an actual detachment cuz we do not have mixed fleet. With how LOSBlock is pushed so hard this edition, I expect they won't be shooting anything relevant most of the game, and will never manage to reach its ideal targets.

2. They would often get variable and inconsistent performance - one game you'd do amazing as you roll 2 sets of 3 shots across all models, the next game you roll all 1s instead. On average it works out fair but game to game the swing has more often than not caused them to die a horrible death instead of scoring an objective, especially during the Knight meta. This isn't as bad today of course, but you may find yourself not having enough damage to close out a high priority target unless you're running a lot of guns.

3. Cover. Against the age of RG Marines, Shockguard were beyond helpless. Only wounding on 3s, only -1ap, and eating both the cover and neg to hit penalties really made them ineffective. If you're seeing a decent amount of terrain and cover in your games, the difference is actually -1 to -3, not -1 to -2.

4. Getting touched is bad, and a 24" gun basically opens itself up to almost every melee centric army in the game. 36" is a huge range on the smaller tables and allows you to cover 3/4 of the table from near your deployment zone. With how pounce and melee centric todays meta is... well...

Numbers wise, Shockguard absolutely maul vehicles at T7 - if you are bringing Jorm, they are certainly an acceptable suicide drop that rerolls ALL hits against a key target on the drop. I would not recommend them in any other fleet or scenario, not even T8 because even if they are more effective than an Impaler at hurting T8, they aren't actually going to kill it most of the time unless you burn double shoot for it,and even then it can be questionable unless its a 12W T8 chassis.

[Adephagia]

Apparently, I don't live in (big announcer voice) "The Meta" then, because I love runnin' over beakies wif me bonebreaker, krumpin' the little 'umies wif the meganobz in me big, explody gunwagon, and flying up the board wif all me little deffkopters (especially to Ride of the Valkyries). While I don't use a ton of trukks, Knights, Guard Armor, and Ad Mech "tanks what float" are still things here abouts, too.

Still it does depend a bit on your meta, if everyone is hoofing it everywhere (i.e. no dark eldar players) you might be starved for bread, and butter targets for the shock cannons, but I doubt it. Everyone has a few vehicles (or hordes), or a key transport that needs to carry slower foot sloggers up into your face, and some armies lean deep into vehicles, and with the smaller boards your hive guard are likely to see them.

The local meta changes with every codex, and edition. I would say build them how you like, after all you're going to be looking at them for years to come (mine have one crab claw--because it's a kewl 'powerful limb'), if you are worried about the meta (and haven't already), head down to the place you plan on playing them, and look at the local meta, and talk to the folks who participate in it. I'm sure they'll welcome you in--I mean who doesn't like a giant, hostile, alien swarm infesting their game room, right?

Lastly, but most importantly for this discussion, hive guard models are basically snap fit, so you can have both/either whenever you like really, just don't glue the tip on, that's what I did after seeing it noted here on the boards last week.

[killercroc]

I've done the math on it quite a while ago but never saved the work I did but it sums up like this: Shockguard are better against vehicles and more so against Knights than Impalerguard, their ability to just cause mortals on a 4+ gives them the advantage. Very few big vehicles have a FnP so they go straight through + and ++, pairing with shoot twice a squad of 6 could take down most any vehicle short of a knight on average rolls. Kronos ones were a bit swingy but could take down a Knight with just slightly better than average rolls. They can still be useful against other targets as long as they weren't marines in cover, so even if your opponent didn't have tanks they were not a complete flop. Plus against light vehicles (T6 4+-ish) they could just delete t hem by sniffing in their direction.

As most people pointed out it's more so how you play them than they start being tricky. Impalerguard with a nice 36" range and no LoS can comfortably sit behind a ruin and just shoot out each turn where Shockguard have to move forward to get into range. This isn't really a bad thing because it lets them stay with the swarm to not piece your army up so your opponent can focus fire on stragglers, and thanks to onslaught you could even run Shockguard around and they'd still shoot without issue. They do need a delivery system sometimes yes, but now that you can outflank with them for 1 (or 2 CP I forget the PL requirement) so they can self delivery so they don't have to be Jorm in a Ravener hole anymore. There is still the option of Spore pod but them sitting between 115-140 is not a cheap transport by any means.

What it boils down to Shockguard are better against vehicles and moderately useful against other soft targets whereas Impalerguard are good against shooting most any target, even if they're in cover or behind it. You can either go specialized or Jack-of-all with the Hive Guard. I find bother work well but always go for the maxed out 6, 3 just don't cut it.

[dc0315]

Jan 15, 2021 20:55:35 GMT kurtangle2 said:

With Shockcannons at 35 pts and Bring it Down being far less powerful I expect the switch to the other loadout in few months: Against Mid sized units S8 isn't really relevant and only -1 AP is significant, meanwhile you hard counter vehicles pretty hard it's not even funny and for few points after all

mid sized units at the most popular toughness value of t4 makes the s8 over s7 very important! S8 means u hit on 3s and wound on 2s, you dont need LOS and it ignores cover. Also, with the reduction in table size that 36" no LoS means u can generally hit anything mid table every turn and not get shot back at. Which means u live longer, which means you shoot twice longer, which means u kill more.