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Post by harryharuspex on Dec 17, 2020 15:37:22 GMT
And trygon hits on 3s base as well. Lots of rules mistakes there yori  . But the general idea is correct: other things do the haru's roles better, and it's not priced competitively. Show me another t8 melee monster who likes being bogged down? People keep saying they do the same thing as other models, what ones? Shooting and melee are completely different beasts of measure so I'm not sure why dakkafex are being used as a measure. Trygons get the same basic amount of attacks, with (comparing my crusade) 2-3 more damage but the same base, even with murderous size. They have the same str but haru are much tougher and can throw down hardily and even brutally when upgraded. In comp standards? Probably no good but oh well, I can live with it not 1 hitting a knight... even though it technically can Does the Haruspex like being bogged down? Mine gets killed by gak all the time, like a Thunderhammer Sgt. (okay, that's not typical, but still). They're really not that tough unless you give them toughness upgrades... and then they really do hit like a wet noodle, it can't even be disputed. Yes, they'll take a bit more to bring down than a Trygon but without doing anything in return, like a Trygon would. |
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Post by purestrain on Dec 17, 2020 18:25:48 GMT
Show me another t8 melee monster who likes being bogged down? People keep saying they do the same thing as other models, what ones? Shooting and melee are completely different beasts of measure so I'm not sure why dakkafex are being used as a measure. Trygons get the same basic amount of attacks, with (comparing my crusade) 2-3 more damage but the same base, even with murderous size. They have the same str but haru are much tougher and can throw down hardily and even brutally when upgraded. In comp standards? Probably no good but oh well, I can live with it not 1 hitting a knight... even though it technically can Does the Haruspex like being bogged down? Mine gets killed by gak all the time, like a Thunderhammer Sgt. (okay, that's not typical, but still). They're really not that tough unless you give them toughness upgrades... and then they really do hit like a wet noodle, it can't even be disputed. Yes, they'll take a bit more to bring down than a Trygon but without doing anything in return, like a Trygon would. Actually a trygon gets wiped SO much easier it's not even a competition, auto cannons drop them because t6 is a bad spot. How does the trygon do more though? Same basic amount of attacks, costs 1 cp to make the haru get full rerolls (helps out immensely vs tzeench when they just deny a hit roll amount). If you factor in the claws he has way more damage potential, as 1 damage twice from both weapons (MST and ravenous maw) would only yield 2 damage, but the haruspex can then make a free attack that can mitigate that minimum amount by half (a free attack doing 1 of the typical 2 damage min we want to deal with meq) and can deal just as much damage with just as many swings if hes into a dirty fight. A TH sarge has what? 4-5 attacks on 3+ and wounding on 4s? Then gets to lose a wound to his acid blood. I'll agree his tongue attack is (please do not swear), should just auto hit at ap-3 3D but it works sometimes. |
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Post by yoritomo on Dec 17, 2020 21:27:10 GMT
And trygon hits on 3s base as well. Lots of rules mistakes there yori . I never claimed the trygon hit on any number, so don't lay this one at my feet No One . People keep saying they do the same thing as other models, what ones? Shooting and melee are completely different beasts of measure so I'm not sure why dakkafex are being used as a measure. Shooting and melee are completely different beasts of measure? So what, we can't compare units if one of them can shoot and the other can't?. I suppose if you strike everything from the codex other than the haruspex, trygon, hormagaunts, lictors, genestealers, and swarmlord than the haruspex starts to look like a good option. Even then I'd argue that the hormagaunts and genestealers are better at clearing chaff than the haruspex, while the swarmlord and trygon tackle elite/heavy infantry and tanks better. But let's not forget that this is 9th edition. Our monsters can shoot their guns in close combat. With this in mind let's bring our devilfex back in, and this time we'll only look at him in close combat. On our turn he gets his 24 devourer shots into whatever unit he is locked in combat with (or assaulting) in the shooting phase and 4 attacks in the fight phase. On our opponents turn he just gets his four attacks in the fight phase. The haruspex gets one shot into the unit he's locked in combat with (or assaulting) in the shooting phase and 4d3 attacks with the maw plus bonus attacks in the fight phase during both players turns. To compare apples to apples let's look at what each unit gets over a full game turn. The carnifex gets 24 devourer shots plus 8 attacks for a total of 32 attacks. The haruspex gets 1 tongue shot, 8d3 maw attacks (16 average, 24 max), plus bonus attacks. Obviously there is a large variation to how many attacks the haruspex gets depending on how hot you roll. If we take the average and assume that he hits on 4+ and Wounds on 3+ we'll get around 12 bonus attacks per game turn for a total of 29 attacks. By the average number the devilfex is better in close combat than the haruspex. Now, this is were it is far to point out that you can use command points and stratagems to make the haruspex better in close combat than the devilfex. And I will concede that this is true. However, my argument would be that if I had to spend command points to make a unit perform as well as one that is 2/3rds its cost then maybe it isn't a good unit in the first place. Edit: Before someone jumps all over me for assuming the haruspex wounds on a 3+, if we assume he wounds on a 2+ he would net 14 extra attacks over a game turn for 31 attacks total. This is about the same, though technically the devilfex still gets more attacks. |
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Post by infornography on Dec 17, 2020 23:24:03 GMT
I agree that the Haruspex is in need of some love that doesn't just come in the form of another strategem, BUT I agree with point that it is also much more durable than most of the other units we could compare it to. That doesn't mean it is unkillable, just that it takes more to do it. Its damage output however is sad for the points cost and it isn't durable enough to make up for the fact that it costs so much more. My preference would be to give it WS3+ and more AP. Even just 1 better AP would make an enormous difference on the maw. Keep it where it is durability and cost wise but give it the ability to deal more reliable damage and it has a place as a really nasty front line mover, which it feels like is supposed to be its role rather than just an absurdly expensive tarpit.
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Post by yoritomo on Dec 18, 2020 0:07:14 GMT
If it were up to me the first thing I'd do is look at his wound regeneration. It either needs to be one per turn, one per wound done, or one per model slain. If you go with gaining wounds for each wound done then it needs to be capped between 3 and 5 depending on his other stats/rules. If you go with models slain then I don't think there needs to be a cap. This cements his place as the durable tyranid monster, something which we really don't have right now.
The next thing I'd do is leave him at Ws 4+; but instead of degrading to 5+ when he gets bracketed he goes to 3+, and then 2+ on his final bracket. This makes him feel like a giant rage monster, the more he gets hurt the more threatening he becomes. It also works well with his wound recovery as the more hurt he becomes the more likely he is to gain wounds back. This makes our opponent decide if he wants to attack it and maybe kill it/maybe make it worse, or leave it alone.
I'd also increase his movement. He should move as fast as other tanks/transports. It's just embarrassing to watch this close combat model have to waddle up the table.
With these changes you'd have a monster that you would want to throw on an objective and be durable to sit there for the whole turn. This is something the tyranid army desperately needs in order to be competitive.
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Post by harryharuspex on Dec 18, 2020 2:47:31 GMT
If it were up to me the first thing I'd do is look at his wound regeneration. It either needs to be one per turn, one per wound done, or one per model slain. If you go with gaining wounds for each wound done then it needs to be capped between 3 and 5 depending on his other stats/rules. If you go with models slain then I don't think there needs to be a cap. This cements his place as the durable tyranid monster, something which we really don't have right now. The next thing I'd do is leave him at Ws 4+; but instead of degrading to 5+ when he gets bracketed he goes to 3+, and then 2+ on his final bracket. This makes him feel like a giant rage monster, the more he gets hurt the more threatening he becomes. It also works well with his wound recovery as the more hurt he becomes the more likely he is to gain wounds back. This makes our opponent decide if he wants to attack it and maybe kill it/maybe make it worse, or leave it alone. I'd also increase his movement. He should move as fast as other tanks/transports. It's just embarrassing to watch this close combat model have to waddle up the table. With these changes you'd have a monster that you would want to throw on an objective and be durable to sit there for the whole turn. This is something the tyranid army desperately needs in order to be competitive. I don't know that this would fix him but it'd certainly give him a niche and make him really interesting and unique, which is I think more than you can say now. Good stuff! |
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Dec 18, 2020 2:59:29 GMT
The hungry hentai hippo is like the golden standard of Tyranid melee. A few rules short of a useful unit.
For an army of multiple appendages and eating we are sorely lacking in the A department. A scout Sgt makes more A than our melee monster. Something with 2 chainswords makes as many as our premier melee infantry.
So many solutions available, let's see what one they chose codex time. (My guess is none.)
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Post by purestrain on Dec 18, 2020 15:14:04 GMT
What can a carnifex even bog down? An aformentioned TH sarge can wipe him solo, with no help at all, he cant do that to the haruspex.
You know the +1 hit custom hive fleet helps out everywhere. Bonesword/MLW hive tyrants fly directly into dual combats on purpose, slaughtering one unit and allowing the other to try to kill it the so they cause a death frenzy, hitting on 3s instead of 4s insuring some deaths.
I've even considered crushing claw/dev fex as their native +1 and the hive fleet trait allow for crushing claws to hit on 3s.
I have a trygon in my crusade force that was recently added, coupled with the +1 hit hes a monster but dies like a wet noodle in the wind because t6.
I know the haruspex has some problems, but they can be patched and be made into a decent killing machine. YMMV
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Post by fawxkitteh on Jan 5, 2021 23:56:06 GMT
When it comes to design, I like when things are diversified so they don't directly compete. Otherwise something becomes a clear better choice.
The Haruspex has a lot of durability, is pretty slow, and has rules and fluff involving eating to regenerate.
Rather than just increasing killing power and having it compete with so many other things, I think it'd be cool if they played with it being a living barricade.
I think a Pressurized Acid Blood would be cool. 6 inchish range instead of melee, can hit enemies in range even if they aren't the attacker, succeeds on 4+.
So the enemy really needs to think what allies are near it before shooting it, and adjust positioning accordingly.
I'd probably remove the extra shoveling claws attacks from Rapacious Hunger though, it's unique, and there are some rare situations where it can be useful, but does it really help it serve a role..?
Maybe increase the healing possibility there instead.
Or just that rage thing mentioned above.
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Post by hiveoverall on Jan 6, 2021 10:07:24 GMT
When it comes to design, I like when things are diversified so they don't directly compete. Otherwise something becomes a clear better choice. The Haruspex has a lot of durability, is pretty slow, and has rules and fluff involving eating to regenerate. Rather than just increasing killing power and having it compete with so many other things, I think it'd be cool if they played with it being a living barricade. I think a Pressurized Acid Blood would be cool. 6 inchish range instead of melee, can hit enemies in range even if they aren't the attacker, succeeds on 4+. So the enemy really needs to think what allies are near it before shooting it, and adjust positioning accordingly. I'd probably remove the extra shoveling claws attacks from Rapacious Hunger though, it's unique, and there are some rare situations where it can be useful, but does it really help it serve a role..? Maybe increase the healing possibility there instead. Or just that rage thing mentioned above. GW could be even more creative and have feeder creatures (haruspex, rippers and pyrovores) win us VP in a specific secondary called "feeding the swarm" or something. Getting us like 3 vp per unit killed by a feeder unit.
I could also see a haruspex specific strat enabling it to "explode" automatically with a dramatic MWound effect (for example 6 range, 3 MWs).
They will need to make it cheaper or tougher though, whatever additional rules it may get.
If we get the Necron treatment then all will be good. The Necron codex really shows the way to go for nids. But without someone in the design team loving the army of bugs, I won't be holding my breath honestly. We want the FW dude who gave us the dima and hierodule/hierophant rules !! Give him to us, GW !
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 6, 2021 12:53:24 GMT
They moved the GW rules in house, so that's the main rules team. I'm thinking that they have had a lot of long planning and brainstorming sessions and want codexes to go in the vein of necrons and SM.
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Jan 6, 2021 21:23:06 GMT
If we get the Necron treatment then all will be good. The Necron codex really shows the way to go for nids. But without someone in the design team loving the army of bugs, I won't be holding my breath honestly. We want the FW dude who gave us the dima and hierodule/hierophant rules !! Give him to us, GW !
I may be in the minority here but I think the Necron codex is an emperor with no clothes. It has some good units, but there are tons of rules that really don't go anywhere. Reanimation Protocols is ass on units that aren't 1 Wound. Doomsday weapons are pathetic, and then there are tons of melee units that are extremely close in terms of how they act. A lot of stuff has been redone but I personally think that by the end of 9th edition Necrons will be in just as bad of a spot as they were towards the end of 8th with not much to show for it except some new models. I hope I'm wrong, but I have not been impressed by them at all when I've played against the new lists. It has some broken rules like the move 6" but that rule would make any army decent. That being said, I do agree with you - I sincerely hope that whoever was in charge of the FW stuff helps out with our new Tyranid codex. Brassangel, any cryptic comments regarding this?  |
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Post by fawxkitteh on Jan 6, 2021 23:22:40 GMT
I do like the idea of victory points or command points tied to specific actions with specific units.
There's a lot of interesting ways units can support besides increasing or decreasing damage directly.
Reanimation is bad on units with more than 1 wound, partly because they all have Living Metal, and it might be extremely powerful if Reanimation was strong on those units all the time.
Though specific Protocols and artifacts allow time frames where reanimation is still decent on those units.
Looking at the Deathguard teasers...
Disgusting Resilience becomes -1 damage received, which can be better in some situations but is worse in others.
But Nurgle's Gift changes from 4+ to mortal wound enemies within 1 inch, to an ever growing -1 toughness aura, which I think is pretty cool and later game benefits ranged where the previous only gifted melee. Plus that actually works directly with the Plague Weapons ability, rather than just being an extra side thing.
Overall they seem to be increasing unit durability, but also increasing how often things hit and hit how they're supposed to (-1 ap added to many things, 1d3 damage turned into 2 damage, 1d6 damage changed to 1d3+3 damage)
That might not carry over to Tyranids, but I think I'm liking the direction overall.
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Post by dranzyl on Jan 7, 2021 15:49:12 GMT
I agree that you have to judge the reanimation protocols and living metal rules together. Thats what a lot of people are missing when comparing the old protocols with the new. I think every multiwound model with reanimation also has the living metal rule as well.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 14, 2021 12:08:07 GMT
Every multi wound model PERIOD in the Necron codex has living metal, and their new Protocol can give you the ability to regain extra wounds from Living Metal OR reroll a Reanimation die every time you roll after an attack.
The Necron codex looks good in design so far, with some misses that aren't any worse than Pheromone Trail. Expecting GW to get it right straight up is just not realistic, but that's because content creation is always finicky and subjective.
What I can say after playing Necrons vs SM in the new, is that they've tried to create a codex that's extremely "cinematic" rather than a codex that's all about raw numbers and competitive viability, which is basically a more refined approach of 8th Eds strategem focus.
Its neither better nor worse than 8th - its merely different, and we should treat it as such. I expect for some really big changes to the army generic rules for Nids, and much less universally applicable strategems, following much closely to the style of our PA supplement.
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. But the general idea is correct: other things do the haru's roles better, and it's not priced competitively. 
