|
|
Post by xtztxtxz on Oct 31, 2020 15:39:14 GMT
Other thoughts on Custom hive fleets for use with our new toys: Morphic Sinews means Barbed Hierodules can be used very aggressively (no penalty for shooting in CC) because their cannons aren't Blast. Prey Sight is a good combo with this, and is simply good on the Scythed Heirodule and Dimachaeron. Metamorphic Regrowth is OK, one wound is not a ton but it might be enough to keep you out of bottom bracket combined with the 2 CP stratagem to heal D3 damage. Synaptic Augmentation might be good on the Barbed Hierodules, gives you a free hit re-roll ever time you fire so long as you're within 6" of a <HIVE FLEET> Psyker or Synapse. Bestial Nature is situational but might be interesting if going heavy on Dimachaerons without adaptive physiologies, it puts them to 8 attacks hitting on 5s but re-rolling hits, combine with Prey Sight... Thinking it through a bit more with the above, I think Scythed Hierodules are the top choice unless your board has a ton of terrain, in which case Dimachaerons edge them out. Barbed Hierodules are *okay* but need to be used as a second wave or third wave to both shoot and fight. I could potentially see a list using Barbed Hierodules like the following showing up in some form though: Metamorphic Regrowth and Prey-sight seem like a great way to take both a Scythed Hierodule + Dimachaeron. The fomer can focus on armour while the latter picks off elite infantry and becomes even tougher to kill. Both have to be dealt with pretty quickly while everything else pushes forward. |
|
|
|
Post by Overread on Oct 31, 2020 16:21:15 GMT
I agree with the view of shifting the heirodules to heavy support. They are indeed no longer towering over things now that the carny is small and we've tergivons and such on the table. Plus making them regular heavy support and a lot cheaper makes them far more practical to take in actual games not just in apoc games. So that's all a net gain for Tyrainds. Perhaps not as powerful in some respects ,but well suited to their points and more likely to actually appear in our armies now.
|
|
|
|
Post by fuerchtegott on Oct 31, 2020 16:32:28 GMT
i have to strongly disagree with everybody. The Hierodule losing Agile, fallback&charge&shoot, moving over infantry&beasts is a massive nerf. its nice to have a strong melee monster for 235 points and the Hierodule will still love Symbiosis for the 5++ but overall, Nerf.
|
|
|
|
Post by murderfiesta on Oct 31, 2020 16:44:00 GMT
i have to strongly disagree with everybody. The Hierodule losing Agile, fallback&charge&shoot, moving over infantry&beasts is a massive nerf. its nice to have a strong melee monster for 235 points and the Hierodule will still love Symbiosis for the 5++ but overall, Nerf. Of course they were nerfed in terms of abilities, their points costs were reduced by almost half. Outside of their abilities, here's what they lost: 4 wounds and one attack on both, 4" of movement on Barbed Hierodules; damage of Scythed Hierodule Bio-Acid Spray from d3 to 1 (but see buffs below). Here's what they gained: Both: No longer LoWs (so no longer cost 3 CP as well); significant buff to their Scything Talons (3+d3 damage >>>> d6 damage); ~40% points cost reduction. Scythed Hierodule: +10" range on Bio-Acid Spray and 3d6 shots instead of 2d6; better degrade table (now degrades M/WS/BS instead of M/WS/A) Barbed Hierodule: 2+ save instead of 3+; BS 3+ instead of 4+; 2 damage instead of d3 damage on their bio cannons (now requires 33% fewer shots to kill a unit of Primaris). I don't know how you can look at what they lost (a little raw power and some interesting, albeit situational abilities) compared to what they gained in terms of their new power / points efficiency and say "nope, that was a net nerf." |
|
|
|
Post by fuerchtegott on Oct 31, 2020 16:49:54 GMT
i have to strongly disagree with everybody. The Hierodule losing Agile, fallback&charge&shoot, moving over infantry&beasts is a massive nerf. its nice to have a strong melee monster for 235 points and the Hierodule will still love Symbiosis for the 5++ but overall, Nerf. Of course they were nerfed in terms of abilities, their points costs were reduced by almost half. Outside of their abilities, here's what they lost: 4 wounds and one attack on both, 4" of movement on Barbed Hierodules; damage of Scythed Hierodule Bio-Acid Spray from d3 to 1 (but see buffs below). Here's what they gained: Both: No longer LoWs (so no longer cost 3 CP as well); significant buff to their Scything Talons (3+d3 damage >>>> d6 damage); ~40% points cost reduction. Scythed Hierodule: +10" range on Bio-Acid Spray and 3d6 shots instead of 2d6; better degrade table (now degrades M/WS/BS instead of M/WS/A) Barbed Hierodule: 2+ save instead of 3+; BS 3+ instead of 4+; 2 damage instead of d3 damage on their bio cannons (now requires 33% fewer shots to kill a unit of Primaris). I don't know how you can look at what they lost (a little raw power and some interesting, albeit situational abilities) compared to what they gained in terms of their new power / points efficiency and say "nope, that was a net nerf." I played them in competitive in 8th edition. This situational abilities were used every game. |
|
|
|
Post by murderfiesta on Oct 31, 2020 17:03:12 GMT
Sure, you might have played them one way in 8th and you might have used the abilities (don't get me wrong, I think they're interesting abilities and I'm sad to lose them, but not *that* sad given the changes). That being said, would you run a single Hierodule for 3 CP at 400+ points in 9th?
You can also literally have almost two Hierodules in your list for a little more than the cost of one Hierodule in 8th, and they have significantly more reliable damage (with Bio-Acid Spray also more than doubling in range). Doesn't being able to have two for the price of one help to significantly make up for the abilities they've lost?
|
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Oct 31, 2020 18:23:03 GMT
Of course they were nerfed in terms of abilities, their points costs were reduced by almost half. Outside of their abilities, here's what they lost: 4 wounds and one attack on both, 4" of movement on Barbed Hierodules; damage of Scythed Hierodule Bio-Acid Spray from d3 to 1 (but see buffs below). Here's what they gained: Both: No longer LoWs (so no longer cost 3 CP as well); significant buff to their Scything Talons (3+d3 damage >>>> d6 damage); ~40% points cost reduction. Scythed Hierodule: +10" range on Bio-Acid Spray and 3d6 shots instead of 2d6; better degrade table (now degrades M/WS/BS instead of M/WS/A) Barbed Hierodule: 2+ save instead of 3+; BS 3+ instead of 4+; 2 damage instead of d3 damage on their bio cannons (now requires 33% fewer shots to kill a unit of Primaris). I don't know how you can look at what they lost (a little raw power and some interesting, albeit situational abilities) compared to what they gained in terms of their new power / points efficiency and say "nope, that was a net nerf." I played them in competitive in 8th edition. This situational abilities were used every game. I think we can all agree with you that for the primary functions of the units, using the same resources as before, it's a net nerf for the Scythed and Barbed Heirodules. (Primarily because assuming they could survive contact, the ability to fall back, shoot, and charge is pretty big. it's ignoring 2 of the core rules of the game, after all, and is one of the reasons Knights were so ridiculously oppressive before.) However, I think most people can appreciate that taking into account a 40% cost reduction, these monsters are much more points efficient for their baseline performance now, in exchange of losing the major mobility options you had with them previously. Having better shooting, better guns, better ability to retain performance after damage, and being able to take more *other* things in addition to the singular Heirodule legitimately makes them a bigger asset to the army compared to just the ability to be manuverable. Sadly I dont think they (Barbed H.) will replace the Exocrene per se, because the Symbiostorm and Pathogenic Slime combo on Gravis is still a very strong option considering 6+sv and 5+sv is a whole 100% more saves (this could legitimately be the differenc between a dead unit or a live one). But it would be quite interesting when we see them used as an aggressively pushing force that shoots and fights, and still shoots into combat. Heirophant is a bit too big for it to work on 9th terrain tables I think, but the fact it has fly is just hilarious. Imagine that big thing with wings. Dimachaeron changes have me hyped. I've had one since 7th that has never been assembled because its rules are so dismal. Ignoring terrain is a super big deal even if he cant hide, because most other monsters can lose up to 50% of their potential movements having to move around walls and ruins (and if it ignores Craters too, EVEN BETTER). a 3+ 5++ 5+++ is EXACTLY what we have always been saying is required for our monsters to be durable enough to not be junk, and now that he has a better profile and weapon spread that doesnt suck, it's time to put that to the test. ScyTal changes are interesting - if ScyTals are S:U, then Monstrous ScyTals are S+1, Massive ScyTals are S+2, it means the Trygon also hits at S9, and Flyrants actually make S7 now (meaning we can get S8 on a non-Behemoth Flyrant for some flexibility assuming someone wants to do that). DMG1, DMG3, DMG3+d3 is really interesting as it makes the Trygon suddenly a REALLY consistent killer that we can use to take out specific non-invul targets. It works way better against vehicles (you never feel bad for rolling a 1, multiple times in a row) and also works against multi wound elite models now (all infantry elites are either 2W, 3W, or 4W, meaning you always do enough to kill 1 with 1 attack). Of course, its unlikely this gets passed to the Trygon so... What do the bioflail changes do to the Stone Crusher? |
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Oct 31, 2020 19:59:12 GMT
The Scythed Hierodule sounds very promising to me. It's acid-spray is a fairly reliable weapon. For 2 CP you can make a primaris killer doing flat 2 damage.
|
|
|
|
Post by purestrain on Oct 31, 2020 20:16:56 GMT
Scythed is definitely fitting into my crusade force. Him and the haruspex are more than enough to tackle any form of threat, the rest can be saturated to your desire (shooting,scoring etc)
|
|
|
|
Post by purestrain on Oct 31, 2020 20:21:09 GMT
I played them in competitive in 8th edition. This situational abilities were used every game. I think we can all agree with you that for the primary functions of the units, using the same resources as before, it's a net nerf for the Scythed and Barbed Heirodules. (Primarily because assuming they could survive contact, the ability to fall back, shoot, and charge is pretty big. it's ignoring 2 of the core rules of the game, after all, and is one of the reasons Knights were so ridiculously oppressive before.) However, I think most people can appreciate that taking into account a 40% cost reduction, these monsters are much more points efficient for their baseline performance now, in exchange of losing the major mobility options you had with them previously. Having better shooting, better guns, better ability to retain performance after damage, and being able to take more *other* things in addition to the singular Heirodule legitimately makes them a bigger asset to the army compared to just the ability to be manuverable. Sadly I dont think they (Barbed H.) will replace the Exocrene per se, because the Symbiostorm and Pathogenic Slime combo on Gravis is still a very strong option considering 6+sv and 5+sv is a whole 100% more saves (this could legitimately be the differenc between a dead unit or a live one). But it would be quite interesting when we see them used as an aggressively pushing force that shoots and fights, and still shoots into combat. Heirophant is a bit too big for it to work on 9th terrain tables I think, but the fact it has fly is just hilarious. Imagine that big thing with wings. Dimachaeron changes have me hyped. I've had one since 7th that has never been assembled because its rules are so dismal. Ignoring terrain is a super big deal even if he cant hide, because most other monsters can lose up to 50% of their potential movements having to move around walls and ruins (and if it ignores Craters too, EVEN BETTER). a 3+ 5++ 5+++ is EXACTLY what we have always been saying is required for our monsters to be durable enough to not be junk, and now that he has a better profile and weapon spread that doesnt suck, it's time to put that to the test. ScyTal changes are interesting - if ScyTals are S:U, then Monstrous ScyTals are S+1, Massive ScyTals are S+2, it means the Trygon also hits at S9, and Flyrants actually make S7 now (meaning we can get S8 on a non-Behemoth Flyrant for some flexibility assuming someone wants to do that). DMG1, DMG3, DMG3+d3 is really interesting as it makes the Trygon suddenly a REALLY consistent killer that we can use to take out specific non-invul targets. It works way better against vehicles (you never feel bad for rolling a 1, multiple times in a row) and also works against multi wound elite models now (all infantry elites are either 2W, 3W, or 4W, meaning you always do enough to kill 1 with 1 attack). Of course, its unlikely this gets passed to the Trygon so... What do the bioflail changes do to the Stone Crusher? He gets a set of either the flails... no joke, says he comes with 2 bio flails. They make each attack count as two so you get 8 str 7 ap-1?? 1d attacks or two claws that reroll hits on vehicles and buildings and does 5 damage to them. Also his ram does d3 mw to any unit other than a vehicle or building, to them he deals d6. Iirc 110 points?. |
|
|
|
Post by murderfiesta on Oct 31, 2020 21:50:13 GMT
Absolutely, my point was not that it's not a nerf to the Hierodules, my point is that I don't think it's a net nerf, based on how often they might now show up in lists. I just mathhammered it out assuming you have Barbed Hierodule and Exocrine both in Kronos with Symbiostorm firing from stationary position. Against Bladeguard Veterans the Hierodule wins with 4.86 failed saves to 4.67 failed saves. Against Gravis the Exocrine wins 7.77 failed saves to 5.19 failed saves (but note that this is probably still enough to kill the unit if they're trying to avoid Blast!) Against a T7 / 3+ target the Exocrine wins with 5.83 failed saves to 5.19 failed saves Against a T7 / 3+ / 5++ target the Hierodule wins with 5.19 failed saves to 4.67 failed saves. Against a T8 / 3+ target they're identical with 3.89 failed saves. Against a T8 / 3+ / 5++ target the Hierodule wins with 3.89 failed saves to 3.11 failed saves. If the Hierodule is moving and loses the Kronos bonus the impact is a drop from 11.67 hits to 10 hits (~15% reduction), which puts the Hierodule below the Exocrine for any target except T8 / 3+ / 5++: Bladeguard: 4.17 failed saves Gravis: 4.44 failed saves T7 / 3+ (with or without 5++): 4.44 failed saves T8 / 3+ (with or without 5++): 3.33 failed saves The benefit from Symbiostorm on the Hierodule is on average 2 additional hits (8 -> 10), so losing Symbiostorm drops efficiency by 20%. There may be a play with one Exocrine and one or two Barbed Hierodules to act as flex assets. The Exocrine deploys out of LOS and can move and fire each turn with the stratagem, and if the Exocrine dies it's not like the Hierodule is a ton worse with all the Kronos buffs except against T5 / T6 targets. Even then, on average it puts out enough damage to wipe a 5-marine Gravis team by itself with Pathogenic slime so it can still certainly get the job done and tangle with tough targets in melee if you need it to. Edit: Since Trygons and Tervigons use weapons that are called "MASSIVE SCYTHING TALONS" which is the same as the Hierodules I suspect we will see Trygons and Tervigons updated to use the new profile in the Imperial Armour FAQ just like Hand Flamers, Melta Weapons, etc. were updated when the Space Marine codex came out. Which could be real spicy for seeing Tervigons on the board, since it'll reduce (or eliminate) the need to give them the Murderous Size adaptive physiology to make them worthwhile. |
|
|
|
Post by kwisatzhaderach on Oct 31, 2020 22:09:23 GMT
After reading over the Dimachaeron a couple times, I'm wondering if it might be a decent alternative to the "Behemoth Super Tyrant". With Murderous size, it has 6 WS3+ (rerolling hits) Str9 attacks at AP-4 and doing D3+4 (avg 6) damage per hit. Vs a Knight, according to this graph, it has a 52% chance of killing it in one go. Link here.
Then, an 81% chance of doing 18 wounds.
This isn't even including stuff like the Behemoth +1 to wound stratagem. Not to mention, once the Dima has killed something with its mortal wound power, it has perma catalyst up. Downside is that it doesn't have psychics or shooting, but it doesn't take up an HQ slot, nor does it take up a Relic. :edit: But wait, there's more! Throw in this +1 to wound power from Behemoth, and your chances of one-shotting a knight rise to a dramatic 81% chance! Link to Graph with +1 to wound added |
|
|
|
Post by timcz on Oct 31, 2020 22:37:33 GMT
Nice surprise to wake up to. Hopefully some of this does translate over to the normal codex.
I am happy to finally paint my heirodule now.
|
|
|
|
Post by hivesupreme on Oct 31, 2020 22:58:37 GMT
Nice surprise to wake up to. Hopefully some of this does translate over to the normal codex. I am happy to finally paint my heirodule now. Me too just pulled it out of my pile of shame, like guess who's going to see the table top haha |
|
|
|
Post by xtztxtxz on Oct 31, 2020 23:33:12 GMT
Taking another look at the Harridan, I think this might actually justify the LOW slot now. It can unload 20 Gargoyles virtually anywhere on the board at the start of turn 2, bypassing the usual 9" deep strike restriction. Great for overwhelming backfield objectives held by MSU units like five Skitarii, or tying up artillery to stop them shooting back.
After that you have a unit with the standard protection of an aircraft (-1 to hit, can't be charged by most stuff) that can also potentially be T8 3+ 5++ 5+++, and won't start to degrade until it loses 25 wounds. There are very few effective anti-air weapons around above S7.
A harridan will average 21 damage against most vehicle targets before saves (28 damage with Pathogenic Slime), enough to reliably pop some very expensive stuff every turn and there's nowhere they can hide. The flat damage is also great for dealing with many popular marine units, wounding many on 2+ even without using Frenzied Metabolism. By delivering your Gargoyle cargo & deleting any immediate nearby threats to them, you can easily build up a solid early VP lead.
|
|
