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Post by niiai on Oct 12, 2020 16:17:15 GMT
So the universal 12" flamers (sorry other Xenos) might actually impact GSC codex in a much bigger way then other codexeses. The reason for this is twofold.
One, the flamer ranged 12" means we can actually shoot in when we arive from reserves, something we do a lot! Arguably more then any other army.
Second with the rules of 9th edition we are 'starved for CP'. Ideally when we arive from reserves we need either A Perfect Ambush, or Lyung In Wait to get the most out of our shooting. With enough flamers this might not be the case.
Thank KurtAngel2 at dakkadakka for doing the mat here:
'Against Guardsmen
5 HF Acolytes = 50 points / 5,833 Damage 8 Neophytes with Autoguns and 2 Neophytes with Flamers = 70 points / 5,778 Damage 6 Neophytes with Autoguns, 2 Neophytes with Flamers and 2 Neophytes with Seismic Cannons = 90 points / 7,778'
Also note that there are other options. 10 broodbrothers 2 with flamers have the same damage output as the above neophytes for 10 points less, 60 to 70. And rougly the acolytes but twice the number of wounds for 10 points more, 60 to 50.
There are also other options, shotgun squad can take the flamers (but they always could.) Flamers can also shoot out of transports.
In othet units: Hybrids can take flamers. Who we will not be using for the most part compared to acolytes who do the same jobb cheaper.
However the chimera can take to heavy flamers for 95 points. 2d6 autohit S5 ap -1 can help renove opponents of objectives, something we already play quite well.
Also, the leman russ can suport 3 heavy flamers. It can be a very good 'counter charge' unit to anything that comes our way. If they charge it and do not kill it we shoot it in the shooting phase. If they arw just hanging around on our side of the map the 12" range means you probably can get within range and kill it.
Lastly, both sentinels can take heavy flamers. I have not really considered them. But I think flamers and lasers of all sorts might be a playable strategy.
Some stratagems that work very well is overwatch. Can you imagine charging 20 acolytes with handflamers? No thanks. Further abperfect ambush with a big group of acolytes sounds very good. Place them withon 2 groups. Shoot one, then shoot the other, even works vs screened characters.
So, so units I will bebtrying out in the furure is the 5 to 20 man acolyte group. Also, they are strong enough in melee to be a threath with 2 rending attacks and a knife. And the humble 60 points brood brothers with 2 flamers. These will be good I think.
What are you gonne try?
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Oct 12, 2020 17:25:31 GMT
Brood Bros only get 1 special like infantry.
Got a list today with flamers and hand flamers. 5 points and +4" makes the webber look like diet coke version now.
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Post by kurtangle2 on Oct 12, 2020 17:39:08 GMT
Brood Bros only get 1 special like infantry. Got a list today with flamers and hand flamers. 5 points and +4" makes the webber look like diet coke version now. Nope, this is what I believed too at first "• Up to two Brood Brothers may each replace their lasgun with either a flamer or a grenade launcher."
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Oct 12, 2020 18:17:49 GMT
Wait we do something better than AM?!
*checks codex* 😮
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Post by niiai on Oct 12, 2020 19:14:06 GMT
Not only do we do it better then AM, we also deep strike for free.
It is not big, but double flamer for 60 points feels like a huge windfall with the 12" flamer range.
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Post by hivemind03 on Oct 13, 2020 0:15:58 GMT
I'm not going to run out and start building flamer Brood Brothers and Neophytes. But the Acolyte bomb is definitely back on the plate for me and maybe I'll try smaller units too.
If you are running 15-20, you'll still frequently want to drop them in with Lying in Wait to contest objective and move block. You won't always be saving any CP. Even so, there are so many benefits and the added versatility is amazing. Those options are what GsC is all about to me. The toolkit army.
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Post by nidzy on Oct 13, 2020 1:30:22 GMT
I'm not going to run out and start building flamer Brood Brothers and Neophytes. But the Acolyte bomb is definitely back on the plate for me and maybe I'll try smaller units too. If you are running 15-20, you'll still frequently want to drop them in with Lying in Wait to contest objective and move block. You won't always be saving any CP. Even so, there are so many benefits and the added versatility is amazing. Those options are what GsC is all about to me. The toolkit army. I was thinking that small units gives us a chance to clear units like nurglings from objectives while a bladed cog patrol just for SMO to go with the bomb might be a cool thing to try with a more conventional nid shooting list.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Oct 13, 2020 6:35:20 GMT
Not only do we do it better then AM, we also deep strike for free. It is not big, but double flamer for 60 points feels like a huge windfall with the 12" flamer range. I mean Scion Command squad says eat your heart out but yea makes sense. I knew keeping those flamers I made at the start of 8th (the flamer edition remember?) would come in play.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 13, 2020 7:28:03 GMT
Nuglings get a 5++/5+++ vs our flamers if handflamers, so you drop a 10 man that does 10-12W you're still not clearing that Nurgling unit out.
I like flamer changes though. Opens up a big set of potential for us esp with Bladed Cog.
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Post by purestrain on Oct 13, 2020 20:14:01 GMT
Nuglings get a 5++/5+++ vs our flamers if handflamers, so you drop a 10 man that does 10-12W you're still not clearing that Nurgling unit out. I like flamer changes though. Opens up a big set of potential for us esp with Bladed Cog. Drop one 10-11 out and pay for APA and spray them down. If they don't fall pay 2 for lying in wait to get the other squad close enough to contest it. Spray them again with the rear pack, if they don't drop flame them with the close pack.
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Post by gorsameth on Oct 14, 2020 0:03:05 GMT
Nuglings get a 5++/5+++ vs our flamers if handflamers, so you drop a 10 man that does 10-12W you're still not clearing that Nurgling unit out. I like flamer changes though. Opens up a big set of potential for us esp with Bladed Cog. Drop one 10-11 out and pay for APA and spray them down. If they don't fall pay 2 for lying in wait to get the other squad close enough to contest it. Spray them again with the rear pack, if they don't drop flame them with the close pack. Your likely better off moving to get the charge rather then double shoot hand flamers at Nurglings. Plus if you charge your likely to claim or atleast contest the objective. Saving 2 CP from lying in wait, or more likely being able to spend those 2 CP on lying in wait another unit is a decently big boon for us. And I personally like the Scout sentinel, the pre-game move combined with its speed helps to get on mid field objectives turn 1, and yes they aren't that hard to remove but its something for your opponent to have to deal with and they are cheap enough that losing one for nothing is no big deal.
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Post by No One on Oct 14, 2020 0:45:11 GMT
I think the problem with scout sentinels is it's easy bring it down VP. Maybe fine if you're not bringing ridgerunners or other MCs/tanks (though then you run into the problem of easy target for AT weapons in an all infantry list, but they're cheap enough that's still probably not terrible), or are so oversaturated that you're giving max anyway, but...
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Post by murderfiesta on Oct 14, 2020 17:54:16 GMT
A Scout Sentinel with Heavy Flamer is 45 points. A Rockgrinder with what's effectively a double Heavy Flamer is 125 points and is also a melee threat, but is also arguably less durable than three Scout Sentinels against anything Str4 or Str8 or 9. Plus Sentinels can't be bracketed.
9 Sentinels with Heavy Flamers is 405 points. Yes, they give up Bring It Down, but only two points each, so they need to kill 8 of them to max it (or 6-7 to get close).
It's 1035 points to run 9 Sentinels w/ Flamers and 9 Ridgerunners. I'm not sure this would necessarily be an efficient use of points, but there's some things to consider: * Consider taking the Sentinels in an Astra Militarum detachment to get access to both the Recon, Go! (2d6" free movement in shooting phase stratagem - pop smoke on this unit!) and Strike Hard, Strike Fast (more on this below). * All of your Sentinels and Ridgerunners have Scout Move, so you can position aggressively and advance quickly up the board if you get first turn, or reposition defensively behind cover if you don't.
Setting the Ridgerunners aside, if going all-in on the Sentinels, I'd shy away from using 3 units of Flamer sentinels. Send two up the board with Flamers or Multilasers to moveblock (3 sentinels can take up a huge amount of space, though this automatically gives up at least 12 to Bring It Down, though if you're taking this many sentinels in the first place that's not something you're worried about), and take a third with a heavy weapon (Lascannons, Plasma Cannons, or Missile Launchers) and Hunter-Killer Missiles. With the scout move, plus 9" movement, this third unit can probably get in decent position to take a good shot at something juicy turn 1 when you can take advantage of Strike Hard, Strike Fast for +2 to hit for that unit (but only on turn 1).
As far as moveblocking with Sentinels goes, if you deploy them right on the front lines you've got 18" you can cross turn 1. If your opponent deployed any units on the front line as well that's a 6" charge you need if you want to be *super* annoying. Otherwise you can advance all of them, Go! Recon! one of them, and then *pop smoke* on all of them. Keep them dirt cheap with Multilasers if doing this, you can get 9 of them for 315 points and chewing through 45 T5 / 4+ wounds at -1 to hit in shooting on turn 1 is not exactly trivial.
You also don't need to shell out for a full Astra Militarum Battalion or Outrider detachment to get your nine sentinels, you only have two stratagems that can affect Sentinels so stick the two units you may want to use those stratagems on in a Patrol detachment and stick the last unit of Sentinels in your GSC detachment. Or just stick them all in your GSC detachments if you're not planning on using Go! Recon.
Edit: I think if you're concerned about giving up Bring It Down you're looking at taking either 3 squads of 1 or two squads of two, depending on whether you want to be able to simply move block or if you also want to be able to charge the enemy front line. A single Sentinel can survive against some squads for one phase, but it's probably not going to be enough against many targets.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 20, 2020 9:13:52 GMT
Just a follow for GSC players, this list won 2nd at some European GT or something. Details are sketchy.
No idea how it actually successful, but there's that for you. Probably lack of anti-horde output.
+ HQ + Magus [5 PL, 85pts, -1CP]: Broodcoven Magus, Power: Might From Beyond, Power: Mind Control, Stratagem: The Cult’s Psyche, Warlord Trait: Inscrutable Cunning Patriarch [8 PL, 150pts]: Familiar, Inspiring Leader, Power: Mental Onslaught, Power: Might From Beyond, The Crouchling, Warlord Primus [4 PL, 85pts]: Bonesword, Broodcoven Primus, Sword of the Void’s Eye, Warlord Trait: Alien Majesty
+ Troops + Acolyte Hybrids [12 PL, 290pts]: Cult Icon 11x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 11x Blasting Charges, 11x Cultist Knife, 11x Hand Flamer, 11x Rending Claw Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids [12 PL, 200pts] . 19x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 19x Blasting Charges, 19x Cultist Knife, 19x Hand Flamer, 19x Rending Claw Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids [12 PL, 200pts] . 19x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 19x Blasting Charges, 19x Cultist Knife, 19x Hand Flamer, 19x Rending Claw Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids [12 PL, 290pts]: Cult Icon 11x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 11x Blasting Charges, 11x Cultist Knife, 11x Hand Flamer, 11x Rending Claw Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids [12 PL, 200pts] . 19x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 19x Blasting Charges, 19x Cultist Knife, 19x Hand Flamer, 19x Rending Claw Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids [12 PL, 290pts]: Cult Icon 11x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 11x Blasting Charges, 11x Cultist Knife, 11x Hand Flamer, 11x Rending Claw Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
+ Elites + Clamavus [3 PL, 60pts] Locus [3 PL, 45pts]
+ Fast Attack + 3 x Cult Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 35pts] . Cult Armoured Sentinel: Multi-laser
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Nov 20, 2020 10:05:27 GMT
I love that list. For all that fail charge there is still fire.. Cleanse all with Fire and claw!
With Clamavus and FOREARM you are bound to get a few in. With those numbers Clamavus might live to get all in.
No saws interesting but with smaller squads around no need to do so?
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