Toxicrene Rules Dispute: Massive Toxic Lashes Fighting First

[tallthor]

Ok, so as written the rules say:

You can re-roll failed wounds rolls for this weapons. A model armed with this weapon always fights first in the fight phase, even if it didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

So if an enemy charges, they get to fight with a charging unit before me even though it says that this model always fights first? Then why have this rule in the first place? Why wouldnt you just stop at the first sentence and say it always fights first, full stop.

Is this the correct interpretation? 

[No One]

I'm not sure why you're questioning this: if you'd both go first, because of charging or an ability, the player's turn gets to pick first.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

It is the correct interpretation but it does allow you to count as though you had charged, always. So if you're toxicrene didn't charge, it can fight as though it did. Also, you have the advantage of being able to fight as though you had changed even if your opponent didn't charge. Additionally, if your opponent charges with one unit, you can interrupt with another unit then fight with the toxicrene in the "charging units" section of the fight phase.

[timcz]

I’m just impressed someone wants to use a toxicrene.

[kazetanade]

Toxicrene were not inheritently bad. Their combat prowess is kinda there. Its just not good in today's context.

[gigasnail]

that...means they're bad.

[kazetanade]

Aug 24, 2020 3:34:22 GMT gigasnail said:

that...means they're bad.

Emphasis on past tense. Also, not everyone is running up against 6 Centurions. These guys can Chew through other elites just fine, assuming you solve the delivery problem.

[gigasnail]

you don't need six cents to kill a toxicrene, and i'm not going to go hard into the paint on exactly how bad they are because i haven't played in 10 months. i'm pretty sure that while they're the best they've probably ever been, they are still, compared to other options you could be taking instead (internal) and options other factions have (external), probably pretty bad.

[timcz]

I definitely want to paint mine up and give it a crack. I think it has to be one of the most difficult units to physically field due to those tentacle things going everywhere. Not going to fit between a lot of terrain!

[kazetanade]

gigasnail it's not that you need 6 Cents to kill a Toxicrene, it's that 6 Cents is a competitive staple and the Toxicrene can't handle them. Toxicrenes cannot handle Cents and Bullgryns and Wraith blades with axes because it doesn't have the output to kill the unit and due to those thick saves cannot kill its own points in equivalents or close.

Toxicrene can handle many other elites just fine, like Eliminators, Eradicators, Intercessors, Tyranid Warriors/Tyrant Guard equivalents, and in general other things geared to taking on infantry not tanks.

By your measurements, basically the *entire* tyranid codex is bad, because there is nothing we can do that someone doesn't do better than us by a few miles. While I may agree with that sentiment, it's not a helpful one. the Toxicrene took its highest point right after Blood of Baal, with its new utility strategem giving it a place that's a little different from other MCs. It's main problem has always been delivery, and as long as delivery can be fixed, he does a decent job for the amount of points being paid for it (which was what, 125pts or something equivalent to a Fex?)

Going back to not everyone plays with 6 Cents, it's that not everyone plays on cutting edge competitive. If you want cutting edge competitive, go play 270 Gaunts or 3x5 Zoeys and 3x Exocrenes, then pray for luck, because even HG aren't really points efficient until you get 3 shooting phases.

[gigasnail]

this has nothing to do with cutting edge competition and you know it. just stop. you can say 'it's not a good unit, man' and nobody is going to club a puppy to death. it's ok, i promise.

no, i don't really think the book is in a good place right now and neither do you. none of this should be exactly shocking to anyone.

[tallthor]

I am using the Toxicrene in my Crusade roster, not so much bringing it to the table, i love the model and I will bring him If I can but he needs so many resources to stay alive and I know that as well as the next Nid Player.

[niiai]

What I do not understand is why it starts with the player who charged first. Because while that was true in 8th, in 9th you generally start with the opposing player. A legacybof the wording it seems.

You can have more toxocscrens, gsc relic, heroic interwene or paroxysemn to help alternate, no?

[kazetanade]

Aug 24, 2020 5:18:37 GMT gigasnail said:

this has nothing to do with cutting edge competition and you know it. just stop. you can say 'it's not a good unit, man' and nobody is going to club a puppy to death. it's ok, i promise.

no, i don't really think the book is in a good place right now and neither do you. none of this should be exactly shocking to anyone.

I just honestly don't think the Toxicrene was a bad unit stat wise for most of 8th, it's commonly accepted problem was that it couldn't make it to combat. I played a triple Toxi triple Maleceptor just to get a feel of them both since everyone was calling them junk units, and was pleasantly surprised at how well they did in their respectively roles.

With a much smaller board than before, making it into combat is easier. The Toxicrene does fine against many different elites for the cost you're putting in. It's not old Haruspex bad, for sure. If someone wants to play one, and they're not fighting really competitive lists, they're not really gimping themselves bringing it as long as they got bases covered.

[gorsameth]

Aug 24, 2020 8:41:52 GMT niiai said:

What I do not understand is why it starts with the player who charged first. Because while that was true in 8th, in 9th you generally start with the opposing player. A legacybof the wording it seems.

You can have more toxocscrens, gsc relic, heroic interwene or paroxysemn to help alternate, no?

charging starts with the currently player and non-charging with the opposing player to stop the current player from generally going twice in a run on the switch from charging to non-charging units.