IMHO Tyranid Units Ranked

[tallthor]

tiermaker.com/create/tyranid-units-9th-edition-v2-533766

Some of this may be rather obvious, and you may disagree, so feel free to Edit and Repost.

[killercroc]

So at first when I saw this I thought it was the actual rankings and all Tyranids were below F tier. Gave me a chuckle.

[phenatix]

Why do people hate on Venomthropes so much? Let's say they're Leviathan, next to your Termagant + Zoanthrope blob moving up the board...

Their existence basically forces the opponent to shoot at them first. Being in Leviathan next to your Zoanthropes gives them 6+++, and they will of course benefit from their own ability, so -1 to hit, it takes ~50 bolt rifle shots (3+ to hit, S4, AP -1) to have a 50% chance to kill a minimum sized unit of 3. If they aim high damage weapons at them rather than your Exocrines/Hive Tyrants/Tyrannofexes/Carnifexes/whatever monster, then all the better.

If they're fully roided up with:
chapter master, lieutenant, doctrine - 24 bolt rifle shots ~53% chance to kill 3 Leviathan Venomthropes. Minimum 240 points shooting to kill your 99.

If they're all alone:
50 bolt rifle shots - ~51% chance to kill 3 Leviathan Venomthropes. Minimum 500 points shooting to kill your 99.

[kazetanade]

Or just shoot through the -1 to hit to kill whatever they're shrouding directly.

Venomthropes have been math hammered to death, basically ignore them because you as a non-tyranid probably have enough damage to kill that important unit through the spore shroud anyway, and it's shown that you get more value shooting straight into whatever is being protected than destroying the shroud first.

It's also been mathammered that venomthropes cost more than equivalent points of whatever they're trying to protect, and you gain better durability per point spent in just investing in more of whatever you're protecting.

[phenatix]

Aug 7, 2020 1:29:24 GMT kazetanade said:

Or just shoot through the -1 to hit to kill whatever they're shrouding directly.

Venomthropes have been math hammered to death, basically ignore them because you as a non-tyranid probably have enough damage to kill that important unit through the spore shroud anyway, and it's shown that you get more value shooting straight into whatever is being protected than destroying the shroud first.

It's also been mathammered that venomthropes cost more than equivalent points of whatever they're trying to protect, and you gain better durability per point spent in just investing in more of whatever you're protecting.

Mm fair I did not consider this. You could probably just get more wounds in Termagants for 99 points than the Venomthropes save you, good point.

[tallthor]

Aug 7, 2020 1:29:24 GMT kazetanade said:

Or just shoot through the -1 to hit to kill whatever they're shrouding directly.

Venomthropes have been math hammered to death, basically ignore them because you as a non-tyranid probably have enough damage to kill that important unit through the spore shroud anyway, and it's shown that you get more value shooting straight into whatever is being protected than destroying the shroud first.

It's also been mathammered that venomthropes cost more than equivalent points of whatever they're trying to protect, and you gain better durability per point spent in just investing in more of whatever you're protecting.

This. ^

[phenatix]

Actually, could someone link to that math please, I'd love to see it. Wouldn't the Venomthropes scale in efficiency with how many units they're affecting? The more the opponent has to kill, the more effect ignoring them will have.

[Hive Bahamut]

Also remember the way the rerolls work now they (Astartes and Admech+) effectively ignore -1 at least the first roll.

Roll a 3 and a 5. Reroll the 3.

Dense terrain and Astartes rerolls destroyed any reason for -1 in 9th. I even question Malany's job and it can hide.

[xsquidz]

Aug 7, 2020 3:56:42 GMT Hive Bahamut said:

Also remember the way the rerolls work now they (Astartes and Admech+) effectively ignore -1 at least the first roll.

Roll 1 3 and a 5. Reroll the 3.

Dense terrain and Astartes rerolls destroyed any reason for -1 in 9th. I even question Malany's job and it can hide.

I only take the malanthope because it can really mess up Tau or guard players, anyone that hits on a 4+ and generally has less re-rolls then marines.

[phenatix]

At least for reroll 1s to hit, that isn’t always true for Termagants. I made an excel sheet real quick and will post some graphs tomorrow. If anyone has actual tables, charts, figures, etc I’d love to see it. The tipping point for how much stuff you need to have is just a lot, aka more than a single unit most of the time. Maybe they’re never efficient for monsters, I haven’t looked.

[hivefleetkaiju]

Aug 7, 2020 1:29:24 GMT kazetanade said:

Or just shoot through the -1 to hit to kill whatever they're shrouding directly.

Venomthropes have been math hammered to death, basically ignore them because you as a non-tyranid probably have enough damage to kill that important unit through the spore shroud anyway, and it's shown that you get more value shooting straight into whatever is being protected than destroying the shroud first.

It's also been mathammered that venomthropes cost more than equivalent points of whatever they're trying to protect, and you gain better durability per point spent in just investing in more of whatever you're protecting.

Can we also imply that the sporecysts on carnifexes do not worth their points?

[hivefleetkaiju]

There is also one nerf on venomthrope as daisy chain of large units is not allowed in 9e now
Units of 6+ models need to have each model in 2” coherence of another 2 models now

[Hive Bahamut]

Regarding Squid, hell ya take them. Those are probably the only armies it really buggers now. I just assume everyone and their dog plays against Astartes, where just like most things the rules don't apply.

In terms of Cysts Kaiju they are a lot more valuable because:

10 points a pop vs. 100 entry level
Durable chasis at T7 3+
Can be spread out to cover every corner
Elites tend to be overcrowded now with Zoans, Hive Guard, Maleceptor etc.
Dense terrain gives -1
-1 caps at -1
Mass Hypnosis and the Horror

I only ever had 1 Venomthrope, and when they made min 3 I dropped the idea. I like support characters in games, but they need a purpose. I literally only bought Malany because she is my favourite job description Nid. Smoke and munchies

[kazetanade]

thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/54159/venomthropes-malanthro?q=Venomthrope

Took awhile to dig. Unfortunately no graphs or charts, just essays, and apparently it's my maths so I'd take it with a lot of salt cuz I'm bad at maths.

The basic idea is that it costs you 90pts to bring a unit of 3, and 1: they're easy to remove and 2: it's more effective to remove the threat unit straight unless you have the capability to kill a big chunk of the enemy's army, at which point you need a big unit to survive being shot and hence doubling the minimum threshold for when it becomes a good idea to shoot them.

With our army being primarily squishy to their respective counter units, being out of sight was the best form of defense and obsoletes the venomthripes.

Edit: gaunts are one of the exception because that's a statistical wounds game with a tonne of homogenous "threats", where the difference between losing 4 and losing 6 actually makes a difference to the long game without a marked decrease in your ability to play your strategy.

[Iryan]

A lot of these could be argued to go one tier higher or lower... I would put Pyrovore one step higher, for instance, but Tervigon should be at least two steps lower. Which is quite sad but true.