Leviathan vs jormungandr

[hivefleetkaiju]

In terms of defensiveness how would you comparing the two?
Which one helps the army survive better?
I appreciate your opinions

[tallthor]

Aug 6, 2020 0:52:54 GMT hivefleetkaiju said:

In terms of defensiveness how would you comparing the two?
Which one helps the army survive better?
I appreciate your opinions

Leviathan I rank 2nd as a Hive Fleet next to Kronos due to the additional statistical wounds it gives your models, where as Jorm can be ignored effectively by Devastator Doctrine. 

Think about it like this, say your 2000 point list has 100 wounds, Leviathan statistaccaly makes that 116 wounds. Pretty good for monsters and blobs of infantry without Catalyst.

[hivefleetkaiju]

Aug 6, 2020 6:41:33 GMT tallthor said:

Aug 6, 2020 0:52:54 GMT hivefleetkaiju said:

In terms of defensiveness how would you comparing the two?
Which one helps the army survive better?
I appreciate your opinions

Leviathan I rank 2nd as a Hive Fleet next to Kronos due to the additional statistical wounds it gives your models, where as Jorm can be ignored effectively by Devastator Doctrine. 

Think about it like this, say your 2000 point list has 100 wounds, Leviathan statistaccaly makes that 116 wounds. Pretty good for monsters and blobs of infantry without Catalyst.

Speaking of Kronos I found the no move condition is quite harsh
I love using a lot of HVC fexes
Do you think if they can work with Kronos trait?

[Iryan]

In terms of provided durability, they are comparable, but they pose different tactical limitations on your army. Leviathan requires everything to be close to a synapse creature, so you can lose the benefit unless you have a higher synapse density than usual. Jorm benefit is lost if you charge or advance and does not apply to melee, so is better for a grinding advance from a mostly shooty army. Jorm also becomes better the higher the armor save of the models already is, so it favors monsters and elite infantry, while leviathan applies just as well to gribblies.

Regarding Jorm being "cancelled out by devastator doctrine", that sounds bad, but if instead you say "Jorm cancels out the enemy devastator doctrine", suddenly that sounds pretty good.

The lower the enemy's AP relative to your current save, the better Jorm's bonus becomes. Our monsters generally have a 3+ save, and most anti-tank shooting has AP-3, some AP-4 and some AP-2. Against AP-3, jorm improves the leftover save from a 6+ to a 5+, which is a 20% dmg reduction and thus a 25% durability increase. Against AP-4, you go from no save to a 6+, for a 16.7% dmg decrease and a 20% durabilty increase, the same as levi. Against AP-5, Jorm does nothing. Against AP-2, jorm improves survivabilty for monsters twice as much as leviathan would.

As for our elite infantry, it depends. If the enemy shoots AP-4 dakka at our warriors, then Jorm does nothing, but if the opponent shoots at them with heavy bolters and autocannons, Jorm becomes much better than Levi.

It really does depend more on your own list and the list you are facing. I would say that for most lists levi is better, but if you build for its strengths, jorm can be better.

[kazetanade]

If your list uses mass Gaunts - Leviathan for sure.

If your list is Dakkafexes - Jorm for sure.

If your list is Warriors - Leviathan/Jorm works.

If your list is Zoanthropes - Leviathan for sure

If your list is Flyrants - just go damage.

If your list is HG and Exos - just go damage

If you don't use a Maleceptor - just go damage

[hivefleetkaiju]

Aug 6, 2020 8:26:14 GMT kazetanade said:

If your list uses mass Gaunts - Leviathan for sure.

If your list is Dakkafexes - Jorm for sure.

If your list is Warriors - Leviathan/Jorm works.

If your list is Zoanthropes - Leviathan for sure

If your list is Flyrants - just go damage.

If your list is HG and Exos - just go damage

If you don't use a Maleceptor - just go damage

Really handy suggestion
For the last item do you mean both Levi and Jorm lists need maleceptor to work?

[kazetanade]

It's not that they need it, but it's more effective to have one. With Eradicator's melta and Bolters being the main weapon profiles to be played, and the new Obscured rules making Maleceptors harder to pick out, both types of lists get a lot harder to kill and really ups your durability. For eg, if you stack Maleceptor + malanthrope onto a warrior unit with enhanced resistance in cover, they will tank a full double shooting Aggressor unit with a lot of room to spare (if I remember right anyway. I had a unit of Zoeys tank that and survive until combat). Gaunts getting both buffs and Leviathan survive nearly 3x the damage as before, making it nearly impossible to shift off of objectives without using an entire army's firepower.

If you're not playing for that kind of durability strategy, you might as well go damage instead and use the specific tricks as toolbox.

[acehilator]

Flyrants should be Kraken or Behemoth.
HG and Exos need to be Kronos always (the mandatory Kronos detachment is not a joke proposition, unless you are running Carnifex stampede you need it).
Maleceptor is optional - I would love to be positive about him because the model is sooo nice, but I think his stratagem would need to cost 1CP, or be a flat -1 to wound.

[terminatoruk]

Depends on fighting style as others said.

I built the core of my collection around a Fex / Warrior shooting - moving up at walking speed and using enchanced senses / Tyranid Prime for decent 3+ shooting.

Use of Jorm + enchanced resistance adaptive psyiology from Blood of Baal on the warriors turns them into a fairly reliable 3+ save unit for all but anti-tank grade firepower (which you can argue has its own value if your opponent is wasting quality firepower against a troop choice).

Other alternatives are based on "they came from below" stratagem to shove stuff down a Tyrgon / Ravener tunnel and get a hard melee punch on the board (e.g. stuffing a broodlord down with the a pack of genestellers to cast catalyst on them when they pop up) or using the very niche - none of that really plays into the defensive trait unfortunately.

You have to invest in something like that to make it losing out on our army's nearly universal ability to advance and shoot with assault weapons.

The other irritating thing about about Jorm is that it can be 'switched off' so easily by Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors and one of 100's of 'ignore cover' abilities - would be great if they just changed it to +1 Sv if you don't advance / charge / declare a charge in 9th edition codex.

Also remember that the Jorm trait doesn't work with anything with the 'Fly' keyword so is useless to things like a winged Hive Tyrant, Neuro/Zoanthropes, Gargoyles etc...

Levithan is easier to work into many more lists and fighting styles - it synergies well with guants as others have said - the chance of getting a 6+ save in this game these days is so slim (more and more basic troop choice have some minus AP built in it seems) that a 6+++ feel no pain is more-or-less a 6++ invulnerable save in effect against the majority of firepower they are likely to receive (not going to get a lot of damage 2+ weapons firing at them) + has the added bonus of protecting against mortal wounds.

[hivefleetkaiju]

Aug 7, 2020 15:18:38 GMT terminatoruk said:

Depends on fighting style as others said.

I built the core of my collection around a Fex / Warrior shooting - moving up at walking speed and using enchanced senses / Tyranid Prime for decent 3+ shooting.

Use of Jorm + enchanced resistance adaptive psyiology from Blood of Baal on the warriors turns them into a fairly reliable 3+ save unit for all but anti-tank grade firepower (which you can argue has its own value if your opponent is wasting quality firepower against a troop choice).

Other alternatives are based on "they came from below" stratagem to shove stuff down a Tyrgon / Ravener tunnel and get a hard melee punch on the board (e.g. stuffing a broodlord down with the a pack of genestellers to cast catalyst on them when they pop up) or using the very niche - none of that really plays into the defensive trait unfortunately.

You have to invest in something like that to make it losing out on our army's nearly universal ability to advance and shoot with assault weapons.

The other irritating thing about about Jorm is that it can be 'switched off' so easily by Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors and one of 100's of 'ignore cover' abilities - would be great if they just changed it to +1 Sv if you don't advance / charge / declare a charge in 9th edition codex.

Also remember that the Jorm trait doesn't work with anything with the 'Fly' keyword so is useless to things like a winged Hive Tyrant, Neuro/Zoanthropes, Gargoyles etc...

Levithan is easier to work into many more lists and fighting styles - it synergies well with guants as others have said - the chance of getting a 6+ save in this game these days is so slim (more and more basic troop choice have some minus AP built in it seems) that a 6+++ feel no pain is more-or-less a 6++ invulnerable save in effect against the majority of firepower they are likely to receive (not going to get a lot of damage 2+ weapons firing at them) + has the added bonus of protecting against mortal wounds.

The cover ignoring weapons and traits are really the reason I hesitate playing jorm
Hope GW would fix it

I also want to play Kronos but the no movement restriction is really harsh
Why Ork Bad moon can have refoll one during shooting phase for free but we can’t
Kronos is supposed to be excellent in shooting

[terminatoruk]

Aug 7, 2020 16:55:24 GMT hivefleetkaiju said:

Aug 7, 2020 15:18:38 GMT terminatoruk said:

Depends on fighting style as others said.

I built the core of my collection around a Fex / Warrior shooting - moving up at walking speed and using enchanced senses / Tyranid Prime for decent 3+ shooting.

Use of Jorm + enchanced resistance adaptive psyiology from Blood of Baal on the warriors turns them into a fairly reliable 3+ save unit for all but anti-tank grade firepower (which you can argue has its own value if your opponent is wasting quality firepower against a troop choice).

Other alternatives are based on "they came from below" stratagem to shove stuff down a Tyrgon / Ravener tunnel and get a hard melee punch on the board (e.g. stuffing a broodlord down with the a pack of genestellers to cast catalyst on them when they pop up) or using the very niche - none of that really plays into the defensive trait unfortunately.

You have to invest in something like that to make it losing out on our army's nearly universal ability to advance and shoot with assault weapons.

The other irritating thing about about Jorm is that it can be 'switched off' so easily by Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors and one of 100's of 'ignore cover' abilities - would be great if they just changed it to +1 Sv if you don't advance / charge / declare a charge in 9th edition codex.

Also remember that the Jorm trait doesn't work with anything with the 'Fly' keyword so is useless to things like a winged Hive Tyrant, Neuro/Zoanthropes, Gargoyles etc...

Levithan is easier to work into many more lists and fighting styles - it synergies well with guants as others have said - the chance of getting a 6+ save in this game these days is so slim (more and more basic troop choice have some minus AP built in it seems) that a 6+++ feel no pain is more-or-less a 6++ invulnerable save in effect against the majority of firepower they are likely to receive (not going to get a lot of damage 2+ weapons firing at them) + has the added bonus of protecting against mortal wounds.

The cover ignoring weapons and traits are really the reason I hesitate playing jorm
Hope GW would fix it

I also want to play Kronos but the no movement restriction is really harsh
Why Ork Bad moon can have refoll one during shooting phase for free but we can’t
Kronos is supposed to be excellent in shooting

Guess it was victim of early codes balance and subsequent power creep.

At least Kronos buff can't be shut down and isn't too restrictive (like having to be within 6" of synapse for lethithan buff).

Hoping also that they bring in rules for Hive Fleet Tiamat (thick plate armour, farms planets instead of consuming) And Hive Fleet Ourboris (blocks out the sun with flying creatures) - I feel that this was an omission that should have been address in blood of Baal.

Increased sv / toughness or ignoring some neg AP for Tiamat would be handy (changing Jorm into -1 to hit at x range 'dense cover' instead to keep them separate) and buffs to flying units for Ourboris would be great.

[tallthor]

Aug 7, 2020 17:39:53 GMT terminatoruk said:

Aug 7, 2020 16:55:24 GMT hivefleetkaiju said:

The cover ignoring weapons and traits are really the reason I hesitate playing jorm
Hope GW would fix it

I also want to play Kronos but the no movement restriction is really harsh
Why Ork Bad moon can have refoll one during shooting phase for free but we can’t
Kronos is supposed to be excellent in shooting

Guess it was victim of early codes balance and subsequent power creep.

At least Kronos buff can't be shut down and isn't too restrictive (like having to be within 6" of synapse for lethithan buff).

Hoping also that they bring in rules for Hive Fleet Tiamat (thick plate armour, farms planets instead of consuming) And Hive Fleet Ourboris (blocks out the sun with flying creatures) - I feel that this was an omission that should have been address in blood of Baal.

Increased sv / toughness or ignoring some neg AP for Tiamat would be handy (changing Jorm into -1 to hit at x range 'dense cover' instead to keep them separate) and buffs to flying units for Ourboris would be great.

I like the sound of both of these, ouroboris could be our old Sky Screamer list. Tiamat sounds great for Fexes and Malaceptor.

[kazetanade]

Cover ignoring is literally:

Iron Warriors
Imperial Fists
Aeldari Custom

who else is meta being played that ignores cover?

[dranzyl]

Somehow i cant begrudge orks getting reroll 1s. Being bs 4 and bs 5 isnt the same , and no SM arent indicative of a balanced aproach.

[tallthor]

Aug 7, 2020 20:27:28 GMT dranzyl said:

Somehow i cant begrudge orks getting reroll 1s. Being bs 4 and bs 5 isnt the same , and no SM arent indicative of a balanced aproach.

If these new codexes set a standard of increasing Damage on weapons, getting an 8 WOUND BIKE for 85 points with a multimelta with 2 shots now, we have an easy bench mark to compare if this is just going to be a painful edition of trying to beat up on marines, or if they make the damage potential of weapons higher across the board. Sure, vehicles and monsters shoot in combat, if they can get into combat...... Meltas potentially doing d6+2 at half range is rediculous.