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Post by purestrain on Jul 25, 2020 10:39:53 GMT
It's okay, the faq will prove you wrong.
Too many lawyers
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Post by Iryan on Jul 25, 2020 11:23:54 GMT
It's okay, the faq will prove you wrong. Too many lawyers The reading of the rule is 100% clear, and while it would make way more sense for the rule to put a 3 shot floor die rather than per weapon, that doesn't mean that is necessarily intended. This is not like the case with that scryerskull nonsense where it was obvious that the literal reading was wrong. This is more like the garbage with taking 2 pairs of boneswords but only getting +1 extra attack. And in that case, GW did choose to stick by the RAW and go with unintuitive stupid option.
I do hope (and expect) that it gets errata'd, but there is a chance that GW will say "nope, this is exactly how we want that to work." The ruling is stupid, but not so stupid that it is 100% certain that it is unintended. It is a toss-up between whether GW failed at rule-wording or at rule-designing. With their track record, it is more likely to be the former but could very well be either.
Get off your high horse, silly
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 25, 2020 14:13:36 GMT
There is nothing to be proven wrong really. There is only clarity.
Real first impressions coming out is that we're going to see a lot of elites on the table and not much grabber infantry. There may be 1 or 2 ways of dealing with infantry - take it out ASAP, and our hordes are going to be extremely difficult to take down for what's left as people heavily tech to handle elites and vehicles.
3D is a magic number - our venom cannons are still going to be going strong. I played Eldar today, and I'm liking where their CHEs are going, Pulse Lasers are going to be a lot of pressure bringing 2 or 3 somehow, and HVCs same vs anything with invuls. The new blade guard are in fact T4, 3W, 2+ 4++, and guess what we're going to see a lot of.
2D/4D is the next one. The new bikes are 4W for some reason... Exocrenes would be great if it wasn't for their 3++ for advancing, so basically stop them from moving or just Smite them down.
Genestealers used correctly in Behemoth *might* have play but I'm mostly unconvinced, I don't think the mid scuffle will feature T4 very often and if that's the case, Genestealers take quite a big dump since they can never trade properly into that (trades into T5 to T7 poorly, noticeably worse with an invul present, and into T8 very poorly).
I am unsold on warriors - the mid scuffle will feature melee strongly. Warriors are really bad in melee.
If Smite doesn't get fixed, 6 Zoey triple Smite is basically our best equalising tech lol. With how elite many armies will go, that's going to hurt people a lot.
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Post by zimko on Jul 26, 2020 2:05:07 GMT
I played a tournament today. My impression is that super resilient units win the day. Custodes won the tournament. Another Custodes player was 3rd. Custodes are both resilient and obsec. And the new CP rules means they can take a single detachment of whatever they want and still have a bunch of CP for the amazing stratagems.
I tried out Behemoth Genestealers. They could not kill custodes in melee. The mid-field scrum is where you win or lose and I couldn't compete with them. They did great against Necrons and OK vs Nurgle. I think they're still playable. If we had something that could do what they do for cheaper then I'd be all over it, but I don't see how you can replace them for fast melee infantry.
The Super Flyrant also had a hard time against Custodes. The Custode player had a unit of 7 Bikes (it was over 700 pts) and the flyrant only killed 3. Which I suppose does at least make his points back, but it was still very disappointing. The Flyrant did fine against Necrons and Nurgle.
Hive Guard and Exocrines are still all-stars. Hive Guard are especially good now with their reach. I'm not sure it's worth taking a second unit. I'd have a hard time hiding a 2nd unit. I am definitely considering adding a 2nd Exocrine to my list. Being able to outflank is a strong way to play them.
There was a lot less Blast than I expected. The blast that did exist were all designed to kill multi-wound models and were d6 attacks. So I think having 30man units of Termagants may actually be strong in the current meta. There's not a lot of volume of attacks out there since everyone is tooling to play against elite armies.
The Broodlord was amazing for Psychic Ritual secondary. It's very easy to get him within 6" of the center, and to have some gaunts nearby behind terrain to keep him protected while he does 3 psychic actions. It's a decent way to get 15 points. One of the mission was Vanguard Deployment, and for that one I took the Psychic secondary where you just need to be within 6" of the enemy's battlefield edge and cast 2 times for 8 points and 4 times for 15 points. As it turns out, that mission says the the enemy battlefield edge is the entire long board edge. Which means, if you deploy in the corner, you can get within 6" of it in a single move AND also be on one of the objectives in that mission. It's a very strong secondary and Broodlord has the mobility to get it done. Unfortunately it basically takes him out of the game. So I may need to rethink how I use him in my list. Either way, I strongly recommend the Psychic secondaries for our army and to have a character in the list who's sole purpose is getting you 15 points.
That's about all the notes I have so far. The new terrain rules and secondaries will take time and experience to get the hang of but all-in-all it's a decent edition. The games are certainly faster.
Sidenote: The TO did not let us do the multi-smite thing. No-one took multi-dice blast weapons so that rule never came up.
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Post by purestrain on Jul 26, 2020 2:08:54 GMT
It's okay, the faq will prove you wrong. Too many lawyers The reading of the rule is 100% clear, and while it would make way more sense for the rule to put a 3 shot floor die rather than per weapon, that doesn't mean that is necessarily intended. This is not like the case with that scryerskull nonsense where it was obvious that the literal reading was wrong. This is more like the garbage with taking 2 pairs of boneswords but only getting +1 extra attack. And in that case, GW did choose to stick by the RAW and go with unintuitive stupid option.
I do hope (and expect) that it gets errata'd, but there is a chance that GW will say "nope, this is exactly how we want that to work." The ruling is stupid, but not so stupid that it is 100% certain that it is unintended. It is a toss-up between whether GW failed at rule-wording or at rule-designing. With their track record, it is more likely to be the former but could very well be either.
Get off your high horse, silly
High horse? Maybe. Wrong? Nope. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 26, 2020 5:11:49 GMT
I played a tournament today. My impression is that super resilient units win the day. Custodes won the tournament. Another Custodes player was 3rd. Custodes are both resilient and obsec. And the new CP rules means they can take a single detachment of whatever they want and still have a bunch of CP for the amazing stratagems. I tried out Behemoth Genestealers. They could not kill custodes in melee. The mid-field scrum is where you win or lose and I couldn't compete with them. They did great against Necrons and OK vs Nurgle. I think they're still playable. If we had something that could do what they do for cheaper then I'd be all over it, but I don't see how you can replace them for fast melee infantry. The Super Flyrant also had a hard time against Custodes. The Custode player had a unit of 7 Bikes (it was over 700 pts) and the flyrant only killed 3. Which I suppose does at least make his points back, but it was still very disappointing. The Flyrant did fine against Necrons and Nurgle. Hive Guard and Exocrines are still all-stars. Hive Guard are especially good now with their reach. I'm not sure it's worth taking a second unit. I'd have a hard time hiding a 2nd unit. I am definitely considering adding a 2nd Exocrine to my list. Being able to outflank is a strong way to play them. There was a lot less Blast than I expected. The blast that did exist were all designed to kill multi-wound models and were d6 attacks. So I think having 30man units of Termagants may actually be strong in the current meta. There's not a lot of volume of attacks out there since everyone is tooling to play against elite armies. The Broodlord was amazing for Psychic Ritual secondary. It's very easy to get him within 6" of the center, and to have some gaunts nearby behind terrain to keep him protected while he does 3 psychic actions. It's a decent way to get 15 points. One of the mission was Vanguard Deployment, and for that one I took the Psychic secondary where you just need to be within 6" of the enemy's battlefield edge and cast 2 times for 8 points and 4 times for 15 points. As it turns out, that mission says the the enemy battlefield edge is the entire long board edge. Which means, if you deploy in the corner, you can get within 6" of it in a single move AND also be on one of the objectives in that mission. It's a very strong secondary and Broodlord has the mobility to get it done. Unfortunately it basically takes him out of the game. So I may need to rethink how I use him in my list. Either way, I strongly recommend the Psychic secondaries for our army and to have a character in the list who's sole purpose is getting you 15 points. That's about all the notes I have so far. The new terrain rules and secondaries will take time and experience to get the hang of but all-in-all it's a decent edition. The games are certainly faster. Sidenote: The TO did not let us do the multi-smite thing. No-one took multi-dice blast weapons so that rule never came up. Thanks for the update. A quick mental rundown matches it to my expectations to meta shifts. We don't have a real Custodies player here so I'm really guessing at what they can do, but it stands to reason a Custodies bike/Terminator list has a huge level of play being a full set of fast moving hard hitting 4++ T6 W3 bodies. As a tyranid player using Genestealers thsi is like, our least favourite matchup and sadly Tyranids don't like mass 4++ everywhere, even on SuperFlyrants. If multiple Smite is disallowed by TO then I do not have an answer to them in our codex (other than super massive amounts of HVCs). Nothing in our codex really stands up to a big unit of bikes or really slows them down, and the terminators Deepstriking into guaranteed charge range and stealing objectives is really wreck. If it was just shield captains you can throw Flyrants into them for good results, but I think a big bike unit l actually kills a Flyrant on return swing. I think all other codexes suffer similar issues vs Custodies, except for one which can pump out excessively huge numbers of S6 attacks with 3D. |
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Post by zimko on Jul 26, 2020 6:35:19 GMT
The bikes are 4 wounds each sadly. Also, for 2 cp they can deny all rerolls for a phase (so I couldn't reroll to wound). Also, also, for 1 cp they can get an additional attack for each model they lost that turn. I killed 2 models after my initial attacks. So the other 5 models got +2 attacks each. When I shot Hive Guard at them, a character was giving them -1 to hit. After their attacks killed the tyrant, I spent 2 cp to fight as he died and killed 1 more.
When I tried to shoot some terminators (also 4 wounds) they got -1 to hit and spent cp to make me wound on 4s. Custodes with loads of CP is really tough to deal with.
Zoanthropes are the only answer we have, even without the multi smite. Custodes have very few models so mortal wounds are very good value.
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Post by beetlejuice on Jul 26, 2020 6:48:34 GMT
I played a tournament today. My impression is that super resilient units win the day. Custodes won the tournament. Another Custodes player was 3rd. Custodes are both resilient and obsec. And the new CP rules means they can take a single detachment of whatever they want and still have a bunch of CP for the amazing stratagems. I tried out Behemoth Genestealers. They could not kill custodes in melee. The mid-field scrum is where you win or lose and I couldn't compete with them. They did great against Necrons and OK vs Nurgle. I think they're still playable. If we had something that could do what they do for cheaper then I'd be all over it, but I don't see how you can replace them for fast melee infantry. The Super Flyrant also had a hard time against Custodes. The Custode player had a unit of 7 Bikes (it was over 700 pts) and the flyrant only killed 3. Which I suppose does at least make his points back, but it was still very disappointing. The Flyrant did fine against Necrons and Nurgle. Hive Guard and Exocrines are still all-stars. Hive Guard are especially good now with their reach. I'm not sure it's worth taking a second unit. I'd have a hard time hiding a 2nd unit. I am definitely considering adding a 2nd Exocrine to my list. Being able to outflank is a strong way to play them. There was a lot less Blast than I expected. The blast that did exist were all designed to kill multi-wound models and were d6 attacks. So I think having 30man units of Termagants may actually be strong in the current meta. There's not a lot of volume of attacks out there since everyone is tooling to play against elite armies. The Broodlord was amazing for Psychic Ritual secondary. It's very easy to get him within 6" of the center, and to have some gaunts nearby behind terrain to keep him protected while he does 3 psychic actions. It's a decent way to get 15 points. One of the mission was Vanguard Deployment, and for that one I took the Psychic secondary where you just need to be within 6" of the enemy's battlefield edge and cast 2 times for 8 points and 4 times for 15 points. As it turns out, that mission says the the enemy battlefield edge is the entire long board edge. Which means, if you deploy in the corner, you can get within 6" of it in a single move AND also be on one of the objectives in that mission. It's a very strong secondary and Broodlord has the mobility to get it done. Unfortunately it basically takes him out of the game. So I may need to rethink how I use him in my list. Either way, I strongly recommend the Psychic secondaries for our army and to have a character in the list who's sole purpose is getting you 15 points. That's about all the notes I have so far. The new terrain rules and secondaries will take time and experience to get the hang of but all-in-all it's a decent edition. The games are certainly faster. Sidenote: The TO did not let us do the multi-smite thing. No-one took multi-dice blast weapons so that rule never came up. How did that termagant screen work? You can’t hide them in terrain behind the broodlord since that would make him closest visible and thus targetable even though he is within 3” of them. (Look out sir applies unless the character is closest and visible). I guess it works if there is terrain in the middle you can hide the terms in with their low profile, but they still need to between the broodlord and the shooting unit. |
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Post by yoritomo on Jul 26, 2020 11:39:00 GMT
You can hide the gaunts and still use Look Out Sir. In order to target the Broodlord he has to be both the closest model and visible. It does not matter if he can see the gaunts, so long as they are closer (and the Broodlord is within 3” of a unit) he cannot be targeted.
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Post by beetlejuice on Jul 26, 2020 11:48:24 GMT
You can hide the gaunts and still use Look Out Sir. In order to target the Broodlord he has to be both the closest model and visible. It does not matter if he can see the gaunts, so long as they are closer (and the Broodlord is within 3” of a unit) he cannot be targeted. Yes I know. So you can screen vs long range shooting that way but if something moves up the center the broodlord gets blasted. Unless you have those gants on the opponents side of the board but then it’s hard to both hide them and get them there in time. If the BL is in the middle, gants hiding on our side of the board is not gonna cut it since the BL will be closest. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jul 26, 2020 13:00:05 GMT
The bikes are 4 wounds each sadly. Also, for 2 cp they can deny all rerolls for a phase (so I couldn't reroll to wound). Also, also, for 1 cp they can get an additional attack for each model they lost that turn. I killed 2 models after my initial attacks. So the other 5 models got +2 attacks each. When I shot Hive Guard at them, a character was giving them -1 to hit. After their attacks killed the tyrant, I spent 2 cp to fight as he died and killed 1 more. When I tried to shoot some terminators (also 4 wounds) they got -1 to hit and spent cp to make me wound on 4s. Custodes with loads of CP is really tough to deal with. Zoanthropes are the only answer we have, even without the multi smite. Custodes have very few models so mortal wounds are very good value. Biovores could be another good play vs custodes. They're also good in a TAC list for their movement shenanigans. I'm debating using the two sporocysts I have for board control as well. Depending upon deployment and the army I'm facing, I could infiltrate them or deploy in my zone. Then, it's just shooting downfield and plopping our spore mines for the rest of the game (or until they get shot off the board). I'd have to see about equipment, but barbed stranglers could be good as a horde clearer. The harpy is another way to get mortal wounds but not very reliable. Maybe it could be used for locking down an artillery for one turn? I don't think it will be able to kill anything as it's stats are so bad. Zoanthropes are a good answer to several of our problems (custodes/durability). Back them up with a neurothrope and malanthrope/venomthrope cover and they're very hard to remove. Could running them as jormungandr + using the psychic barrage strat be a good play? Pop them up turn 2 and blast the biggest enemy concentration. You can also perform actions with them that turn as you didn't cast with any of those models. Edit: I forgot to ask, how did you place? Thanks again for the write up and insights. |
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Post by yoritomo on Jul 26, 2020 14:00:02 GMT
You can hide the gaunts and still use Look Out Sir. In order to target the Broodlord he has to be both the closest model and visible. It does not matter if he can see the gaunts, so long as they are closer (and the Broodlord is within 3” of a unit) he cannot be targeted. Yes I know. So you can screen vs long range shooting that way but if something moves up the center the broodlord gets blasted. Unless you have those gants on the opponents side of the board but then it’s hard to both hide them and get them there in time. If the BL is in the middle, gants hiding on our side of the board is not gonna cut it since the BL will be closest. I mean no disrespect, I’m just making sure people know how the new Look Out Sir rules work. I was at the game store yesterday and someone already pulled the “can’t shoot my character because there are closer models” BS. That’s how they explained it on the Mini Wargaming video I believe was his explanation. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 26, 2020 15:45:24 GMT
You can hide the gaunts and still use Look Out Sir. In order to target the Broodlord he has to be both the closest model and visible. It does not matter if he can see the gaunts, so long as they are closer (and the Broodlord is within 3” of a unit) he cannot be targeted. Yes I know. So you can screen vs long range shooting that way but if something moves up the center the broodlord gets blasted. Unless you have those gants on the opponents side of the board but then it’s hard to both hide them and get them there in time. If the BL is in the middle, gants hiding on our side of the board is not gonna cut it since the BL will be closest. gaunts are used for the 3models within 3" rule. You have other things pushing up into their grill while the BL does his thing. |
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Post by zimko on Jul 26, 2020 15:49:45 GMT
I played a tournament today. My impression is that super resilient units win the day. Custodes won the tournament. Another Custodes player was 3rd. Custodes are both resilient and obsec. And the new CP rules means they can take a single detachment of whatever they want and still have a bunch of CP for the amazing stratagems. I tried out Behemoth Genestealers. They could not kill custodes in melee. The mid-field scrum is where you win or lose and I couldn't compete with them. They did great against Necrons and OK vs Nurgle. I think they're still playable. If we had something that could do what they do for cheaper then I'd be all over it, but I don't see how you can replace them for fast melee infantry. The Super Flyrant also had a hard time against Custodes. The Custode player had a unit of 7 Bikes (it was over 700 pts) and the flyrant only killed 3. Which I suppose does at least make his points back, but it was still very disappointing. The Flyrant did fine against Necrons and Nurgle. Hive Guard and Exocrines are still all-stars. Hive Guard are especially good now with their reach. I'm not sure it's worth taking a second unit. I'd have a hard time hiding a 2nd unit. I am definitely considering adding a 2nd Exocrine to my list. Being able to outflank is a strong way to play them. There was a lot less Blast than I expected. The blast that did exist were all designed to kill multi-wound models and were d6 attacks. So I think having 30man units of Termagants may actually be strong in the current meta. There's not a lot of volume of attacks out there since everyone is tooling to play against elite armies. The Broodlord was amazing for Psychic Ritual secondary. It's very easy to get him within 6" of the center, and to have some gaunts nearby behind terrain to keep him protected while he does 3 psychic actions. It's a decent way to get 15 points. One of the mission was Vanguard Deployment, and for that one I took the Psychic secondary where you just need to be within 6" of the enemy's battlefield edge and cast 2 times for 8 points and 4 times for 15 points. As it turns out, that mission says the the enemy battlefield edge is the entire long board edge. Which means, if you deploy in the corner, you can get within 6" of it in a single move AND also be on one of the objectives in that mission. It's a very strong secondary and Broodlord has the mobility to get it done. Unfortunately it basically takes him out of the game. So I may need to rethink how I use him in my list. Either way, I strongly recommend the Psychic secondaries for our army and to have a character in the list who's sole purpose is getting you 15 points. That's about all the notes I have so far. The new terrain rules and secondaries will take time and experience to get the hang of but all-in-all it's a decent edition. The games are certainly faster. Sidenote: The TO did not let us do the multi-smite thing. No-one took multi-dice blast weapons so that rule never came up. How did that termagant screen work? You can’t hide them in terrain behind the broodlord since that would make him closest visible and thus targetable even though he is within 3” of them. (Look out sir applies unless the character is closest and visible). I guess it works if there is terrain in the middle you can hide the terms in with their low profile, but they still need to between the broodlord and the shooting unit. What I meant by this was that the gaunts were behing a wall and out of LOS. The Broodlord was within 3" of them but within 6" of the center of the board. Other units in my army were still yet closer to my opponent, but it's important that those gaunts are untargetable and within 3" to protect the Broodlord. |
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Post by zimko on Jul 26, 2020 15:54:08 GMT
The bikes are 4 wounds each sadly. Also, for 2 cp they can deny all rerolls for a phase (so I couldn't reroll to wound). Also, also, for 1 cp they can get an additional attack for each model they lost that turn. I killed 2 models after my initial attacks. So the other 5 models got +2 attacks each. When I shot Hive Guard at them, a character was giving them -1 to hit. After their attacks killed the tyrant, I spent 2 cp to fight as he died and killed 1 more. When I tried to shoot some terminators (also 4 wounds) they got -1 to hit and spent cp to make me wound on 4s. Custodes with loads of CP is really tough to deal with. Zoanthropes are the only answer we have, even without the multi smite. Custodes have very few models so mortal wounds are very good value. Biovores could be another good play vs custodes. They're also good in a TAC list for their movement shenanigans. I'm debating using the two sporocysts I have for board control as well. Depending upon deployment and the army I'm facing, I could infiltrate them or deploy in my zone. Then, it's just shooting downfield and plopping our spore mines for the rest of the game (or until they get shot off the board). I'd have to see about equipment, but barbed stranglers could be good as a horde clearer. The harpy is another way to get mortal wounds but not very reliable. Maybe it could be used for locking down an artillery for one turn? I don't think it will be able to kill anything as it's stats are so bad. Zoanthropes are a good answer to several of our problems (custodes/durability). Back them up with a neurothrope and malanthrope/venomthrope cover and they're very hard to remove. Could running them as jormungandr + using the psychic barrage strat be a good play? Pop them up turn 2 and blast the biggest enemy concentration. You can also perform actions with them that turn as you didn't cast with any of those models. Edit: I forgot to ask, how did you place? Thanks again for the write up and insights. I placed ok. I was 7th out of 12 which is the best I can do with a 1 and 2 record. I gave a more detailed report in my army list thread but the basic rundown is I slaughtered Necrons, then got slapped down hard by Custodes, then had a good scrum with Nurgle but his saves were too hot to take down Morty and lost that game 79 to 61. |
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