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Post by kazetanade on Jul 23, 2020 12:49:24 GMT
Can anyone shed light on the Deathleaper deal? I dont see it either.
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Post by niiai on Jul 23, 2020 13:58:47 GMT
If wyverns are so good perhaps my nids should streach from nids, through GSC and into some nice imperial guard tanks. If the wyverns are deleting infantery I should perhaps be asking myself why I am using tyranids. Have wyvern nuke infsntery anf ridgerumners and miningweapons crack thougher nuts. Because Wyverns only kill weak infantry and if you run into a space marine they are damn useless. Posters fear the Wyvern but I expect top lists to have none of them because they are to niche. What is the ideal weapon to deal with primaris marines then? The basilisk? Or our very own exoshrine? |
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Post by zimko on Jul 23, 2020 14:07:48 GMT
Exocrines are excellent primaris marine killers. Hive Guard are fine at it too.
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Post by killercroc on Jul 23, 2020 14:21:58 GMT
Wyverns are only good against weak low sv infantry, which short of cultists we're the only army with T3 6+ infantry. If you're T4 or have a 4+ sv their lethality drops heavily. While Cadian Wyverns they cause 10 unsaved wounds against gaunts max shots against marines kills an average of 3.6 so that's a possible 2 Primaris. Primaris are what 20 points now? so it kills 50-60 points in Nids and Cultists but only 40 points worth of primaris. Another way to look at it is a Wyvern can kill a max squad of gants in 3 turns vs 5 turns against primaris. Even worse if they're in cover and unlike Nids Marines have ignore LoS long range units to shoot back with.
Anything that is S6 AP of at least -2 and solid 2 Dmg is ideal for fighting Primaris as it takes down most of their strengths. Exocrine are good at killing all normal forms of Primaris, Heavy venom cannons are good for killing the Aggressor types, or just use Pathogenic slime on Exos to make them good against those. Impaler guard can be used as well, they can be used against tanks and if no tanks then troops. Wearriors with Deathspitters and venom cannons are the best cheap minor option we have for them. Potentially toxin rending stealers could do it but imo toxin sacs are not worth their cost for how rarely they trigger. 4 ppm for a 1/6 chance to even trigger is pathetic. If you're using GSC Neophytes with grenade launchers shoot krak and seismic cannons are an option against them for your cheap troops, other than that buzz saw Acolytes or Aberrants should rip through them easily enough. Basilisk isn't all that great against them as you're getting D6 shots or 3-6 against a 10 man team, our basilisk don't get traits so you're bare bones hitting on 4+ wounding on 2+ AP -3 D3 dmg really gets you an average 2 dead on a good roll with dmg.
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Post by gorsameth on Jul 23, 2020 15:17:04 GMT
Because Wyverns only kill weak infantry and if you run into a space marine they are damn useless. Posters fear the Wyvern but I expect top lists to have none of them because they are to niche. What is the ideal weapon to deal with primaris marines then? The basilisk? Or our very own exoshrine? Exocrines are great, 12 str 7 ap -3 shots with 2D is about as good as you can get for killing Primaris. Hiveguard are ok, but d3 damage means 1 in 3 shots doesn't kill which is a big waste. GSC have Rock Saws For Guard most guns are sadly d3 damage rather then the better flat 2-3. Plasma guns are only 5 pts. I would pick Manticores over Basilisks. their 20? points more expensive now and the basilisk no longer has the specialist detachment to buff it and limited ammo is much less a concern with a fixed 5 turns. |
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Post by Jbizzy on Jul 23, 2020 17:21:46 GMT
Guess I'll wait for new codex to see if nids end up playing like nids... Instead of old tired model ranged playing old and tired...
If Eldar Aspect warriors get all new plastics I'll probably just switch
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 23, 2020 18:52:53 GMT
Wyverns are only good against weak low sv infantry, which short of cultists we're the only army with T3 6+ infantry. If you're T4 or have a 4+ sv their lethality drops heavily. While Cadian Wyverns they cause 10 unsaved wounds against gaunts max shots against marines kills an average of 3.6 so that's a possible 2 Primaris. Primaris are what 20 points now? so it kills 50-60 points in Nids and Cultists but only 40 points worth of primaris. Another way to look at it is a Wyvern can kill a max squad of gants in 3 turns vs 5 turns against primaris. Even worse if they're in cover and unlike Nids Marines have ignore LoS long range units to shoot back with. Anything that is S6 AP of at least -2 and solid 2 Dmg is ideal for fighting Primaris as it takes down most of their strengths. Exocrine are good at killing all normal forms of Primaris, Heavy venom cannons are good for killing the Aggressor types, or just use Pathogenic slime on Exos to make them good against those. Impaler guard can be used as well, they can be used against tanks and if no tanks then troops. Wearriors with Deathspitters and venom cannons are the best cheap minor option we have for them. Potentially toxin rending stealers could do it but imo toxin sacs are not worth their cost for how rarely they trigger. 4 ppm for a 1/6 chance to even trigger is pathetic. If you're using GSC Neophytes with grenade launchers shoot krak and seismic cannons are an option against them for your cheap troops, other than that buzz saw Acolytes or Aberrants should rip through them easily enough. Basilisk isn't all that great against them as you're getting D6 shots or 3-6 against a 10 man team, our basilisk don't get traits so you're bare bones hitting on 4+ wounding on 2+ AP -3 D3 dmg really gets you an average 2 dead on a good roll with dmg. Just a reminder - Wyverns get 4d6 reroll to hit reroll to wound. RR to hit via aerial spotter in the main codex, and rr to wound native. assuming normal hits that's 14 shots, 10-11 hits, 7-8 wounds on Marine chassis. that's 3W dealt or less, so not even 1 primaris. In contrast, vs 10 man gaunts you'd be getting 14 shots, 10-11 hits, 9 wounds on gaunts, and thereby not even killing that 1 unit of gaunts. So Wyverns are only good for BIG units of 11+, where they are getting 24 shots straight up, or in Catachans where they can reroll one of the d6s to get better consistent results. We're unlikely to see Wyverns in games, period. |
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Post by xsquidz on Jul 23, 2020 19:30:06 GMT
Wyverns are only good against weak low sv infantry, which short of cultists we're the only army with T3 6+ infantry. If you're T4 or have a 4+ sv their lethality drops heavily. While Cadian Wyverns they cause 10 unsaved wounds against gaunts max shots against marines kills an average of 3.6 so that's a possible 2 Primaris. Primaris are what 20 points now? so it kills 50-60 points in Nids and Cultists but only 40 points worth of primaris. Another way to look at it is a Wyvern can kill a max squad of gants in 3 turns vs 5 turns against primaris. Even worse if they're in cover and unlike Nids Marines have ignore LoS long range units to shoot back with. Anything that is S6 AP of at least -2 and solid 2 Dmg is ideal for fighting Primaris as it takes down most of their strengths. Exocrine are good at killing all normal forms of Primaris, Heavy venom cannons are good for killing the Aggressor types, or just use Pathogenic slime on Exos to make them good against those. Impaler guard can be used as well, they can be used against tanks and if no tanks then troops. Wearriors with Deathspitters and venom cannons are the best cheap minor option we have for them. Potentially toxin rending stealers could do it but imo toxin sacs are not worth their cost for how rarely they trigger. 4 ppm for a 1/6 chance to even trigger is pathetic. If you're using GSC Neophytes with grenade launchers shoot krak and seismic cannons are an option against them for your cheap troops, other than that buzz saw Acolytes or Aberrants should rip through them easily enough. Basilisk isn't all that great against them as you're getting D6 shots or 3-6 against a 10 man team, our basilisk don't get traits so you're bare bones hitting on 4+ wounding on 2+ AP -3 D3 dmg really gets you an average 2 dead on a good roll with dmg. Just a reminder - Wyverns get 4d6 reroll to hit reroll to wound. RR to hit via aerial spotter in the main codex, and rr to wound native. assuming normal hits that's 14 shots, 10-11 hits, 7-8 wounds on Marine chassis. that's 3W dealt or less, so not even 1 primaris. In contrast, vs 10 man gaunts you'd be getting 14 shots, 10-11 hits, 9 wounds on gaunts, and thereby not even killing that 1 unit of gaunts. So Wyverns are only good for BIG units of 11+, where they are getting 24 shots straight up, or in Catachans where they can reroll one of the d6s to get better consistent results. We're unlikely to see Wyverns in games, period. Wyverns can now move and fire with no penalty which means they can run away and makes them better. Or someone could reserve them. They could hide out of LOS and then pop out to see you and they have a new strat to get +1 to hit. So hitting on 3+ and can get re-rolls to hit if they want as well. I think most guard players will take just one, that investment is worth it if you do face a horde player. The fact that you can't double shoot them in tournaments anymore is a huge nerf however. |
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Post by killercroc on Jul 23, 2020 20:36:09 GMT
First off I'd just like to point out this wasn't an 'OMG Wyverns are broke AF' thought, it was an 'damage output to price of unit and consistency of damage does not line up' thought. Firstly the math was off, against 10 targets it goes from being 4D6 to 4D3-6 so the average would tick higher than 14, more to 16 since it reduces all the low roll results of 1 & 2. so with rr hit & wound thats 10.72 wounds to gaunts so say 11 and 9 wounds to marines. 9.24 so 9 unsaved to gaunts and 3 unsaved to primaris so that's a primaris and a half. I said it's a possible because the average roll will get you 3 wounds so it's not a huge variation to 4 wounds so possible 2.
Even if it only kills 9 a turn that means after 3 turns it's already killed more gants than it costs. So every turn a Wyvern fires after T3 is net positive point efficiency to the army. If Tyranids big tactic is just flood the board with gaunts and wait which I've heard plenty of talk of gaunt carpets to know it's more than just one person doing it. A mere pittance of 3 Wyverns can shut it down, not to count all the other stuff in the guard army. All the infantry and tanks, and orders and characters. Just mere 3 artillery pieces can shatter non-marine infantry without any thought put into it. It's also an addition to my "why bother with mass infantry" in this edition. I havent really seen any good reason to take lots of troops unless you just want to flood the board. Good side is because now it doesn't matter if we take one unit of 30 or three units of 10 it's easier to fill out battalions, but why bother when you can just take a spearhead for the same CP cost and just flood out heavy tanks?
And yeah even if they aren't the best against helmets they can still do damage to other infantry decently enough that taking at least 1 wont throw off your list and if you are fighting someone that's trying to meat shield their army with little infantry you can just blast them open. Wyverns aren't super powerful thay're just an anti-light infantry tank. But with the change to blast and them not getting a comparative point increase they are really powerful for being so cheap.
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Post by gorsameth on Jul 23, 2020 20:49:29 GMT
First off I'd just like to point out this wasn't an 'OMG Wyverns are broke AF' thought, it was an 'damage output to price of unit and consistency of damage does not line up' thought. Firstly the math was off, against 10 targets it goes from being 4D6 to 4D3-6 so the average would tick higher than 14, more to 16 since it reduces all the low roll results of 1 & 2. so with rr hit & wound thats 10.72 wounds to gaunts so say 11 and 9 wounds to marines. 9.24 so 9 unsaved to gaunts and 3 unsaved to primaris so that's a primaris and a half. I said it's a possible because the average roll will get you 3 wounds so it's not a huge variation to 4 wounds so possible 2. Even if it only kills 9 a turn that means after 3 turns it's already killed more gants than it costs. So every turn a Wyvern fires after T3 is net positive point efficiency to the army. If Tyranids big tactic is just flood the board with gaunts and wait which I've heard plenty of talk of gaunt carpets to know it's more than just one person doing it. A mere pittance of 3 Wyverns can shut it down, not to count all the other stuff in the guard army. All the infantry and tanks, and orders and characters. Just mere 3 artillery pieces can shatter non-marine infantry without any thought put into it. It's also an addition to my "why bother with mass infantry" in this edition. I havent really seen any good reason to take lots of troops unless you just want to flood the board. Good side is because now it doesn't matter if we take one unit of 30 or three units of 10 it's easier to fill out battalions, but why bother when you can just take a spearhead for the same CP cost and just flood out heavy tanks? And yeah even if they aren't the best against helmets they can still do damage to other infantry decently enough that taking at least 1 wont throw off your list and if you are fighting someone that's trying to meat shield their army with little infantry you can just blast them open. Wyverns aren't super powerful thay're just an anti-light infantry tank. But with the change to blast and them not getting a comparative point increase they are really powerful for being so cheap. Blast, as written does nothing for a Wyvern against less then 11 targets, against 6-10 it has a minimum of 3 shots but 4d6 already puts it at 4 shots. Its 3 shots min for the weapon, not per dice. This might change later in an errate but as it stands this is what we have. |
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Post by purestrain on Jul 23, 2020 20:59:34 GMT
First off I'd just like to point out this wasn't an 'OMG Wyverns are broke AF' thought, it was an 'damage output to price of unit and consistency of damage does not line up' thought. Firstly the math was off, against 10 targets it goes from being 4D6 to 4D3-6 so the average would tick higher than 14, more to 16 since it reduces all the low roll results of 1 & 2. so with rr hit & wound thats 10.72 wounds to gaunts so say 11 and 9 wounds to marines. 9.24 so 9 unsaved to gaunts and 3 unsaved to primaris so that's a primaris and a half. I said it's a possible because the average roll will get you 3 wounds so it's not a huge variation to 4 wounds so possible 2. Even if it only kills 9 a turn that means after 3 turns it's already killed more gants than it costs. So every turn a Wyvern fires after T3 is net positive point efficiency to the army. If Tyranids big tactic is just flood the board with gaunts and wait which I've heard plenty of talk of gaunt carpets to know it's more than just one person doing it. A mere pittance of 3 Wyverns can shut it down, not to count all the other stuff in the guard army. All the infantry and tanks, and orders and characters. Just mere 3 artillery pieces can shatter non-marine infantry without any thought put into it. It's also an addition to my "why bother with mass infantry" in this edition. I havent really seen any good reason to take lots of troops unless you just want to flood the board. Good side is because now it doesn't matter if we take one unit of 30 or three units of 10 it's easier to fill out battalions, but why bother when you can just take a spearhead for the same CP cost and just flood out heavy tanks? And yeah even if they aren't the best against helmets they can still do damage to other infantry decently enough that taking at least 1 wont throw off your list and if you are fighting someone that's trying to meat shield their army with little infantry you can just blast them open. Wyverns aren't super powerful thay're just an anti-light infantry tank. But with the change to blast and them not getting a comparative point increase they are really powerful for being so cheap. Blast, as written does nothing for a Wyvern against less then 11 targets, against 6-10 it has a minimum of 3 shots but 4d6 already puts it at 4 shots. Its 3 shots min for the weapon, not per dice. This might change later in an errate but as it stands this is what we have. Thats totally incorrect, you have to roll the dice to determine how many shots are fired, the blast rule modifies the result of those dice, not the total amount they account for. against 6-10 targets a Wyvern has 12 shots, against 11+ it has 24 |
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Post by killercroc on Jul 23, 2020 21:19:23 GMT
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Post by Iryan on Jul 23, 2020 21:23:51 GMT
Thats totally incorrect, you have to roll the dice to determine how many shots are fired, the blast rule modifies the result of those dice, not the total amount they account for. against 6-10 targets a Wyvern has 12 shots, against 11+ it has 24 See, setting a floor for the individual die rolls rather than the total number of shots makes sense, it is the way it should work. But it doesn't. Yes it is stupid, but that is how it is. Reread the rule again. It sets a floor for the attacks of the weapon, not for the individual dice.
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Post by gorsameth on Jul 23, 2020 21:26:02 GMT
Blast, as written does nothing for a Wyvern against less then 11 targets, against 6-10 it has a minimum of 3 shots but 4d6 already puts it at 4 shots. Its 3 shots min for the weapon, not per dice. This might change later in an errate but as it stands this is what we have. Thats totally incorrect, you have to roll the dice to determine how many shots are fired, the blast rule modifies the result of those dice, not the total amount they account for. against 6-10 targets a Wyvern has 12 shots, against 11+ it has 24 the blast rule talks about the number of attacks. That is after dice are added together. A wyvern does not shoot 4 times with d6 dice each. It makes 4d6 attacks. Rolling a 1 does not result in less then 3 attacks being made. because rolling 4 1's means the weapon makes 4 attacks, which is more then 3. |
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Post by gorsameth on Jul 23, 2020 21:27:49 GMT
It references the attacks made. the number of attacks made can not be less then 3. And the Wyvern makes 4d6 attacks, which can never be lower then 3. |
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