Grand Tournament 2020 Leak

[jamierk]

Don’t forget that amazing strat to run off when you’ve killed everything near the stealers. So rather than sending in your stealers to murder and die, send them in to murder and run off behind some obscuring terrain.

[iniquity]

So the tldr

The genestealer sling shot still works if:

You need to trade a 300 point genestealer unit into something probably less than 300 points.

You want to use half of your cp to make that trade

Your opponent is a root vegetable who will let you wrap multiple units.

You know your opponents punch back won’t slap all of your genestealers

Seems legit.

[purestrain]

Jul 20, 2020 12:15:15 GMT iniquity said:

So the tldr

The genestealer sling shot still works if:

You need to trade a 300 point genestealer unit into something probably less than 300 points.

You want to use half of your cp to make that trade

Your opponent is a root vegetable who will let you wrap multiple units.

You know your opponents punch back won’t slap all of your genestealers

Seems legit.

No.

[hivemind03]

Jul 20, 2020 12:55:36 GMT purestrain said:

Jul 20, 2020 12:15:15 GMT iniquity said:

So the tldr

The genestealer sling shot still works if:

You need to trade a 300 point genestealer unit into something probably less than 300 points.

You want to use half of your cp to make that trade

Your opponent is a root vegetable who will let you wrap multiple units.

You know your opponents punch back won’t slap all of your genestealers

Seems legit.

No.

Iniquity was being sarcastic. This doesn't seem legit.

[beetlejuice]

I’m gonna try trygon prime with murderous size and AG relic with 14 GS in tow. Hive tyrant shoot something for 4d6 into 3d6 charge, CP reroll if need be, should make it reliable. Potential suicide unit but hopefully overrun to an objective or hide for a counter charge following turn, trygon is sacrificed as a distraction carnifex. Will see, might be too expensive in both pts and CP. I like the strategic value and how it forces your opponent to think about a potential scalpel appearing T2.

[zimko]

Reasons why Genestealers are better:
- Shorter boards
- limited overwatch
- screening units limited by coherency
- fly keyword can't shoot after falling back
- obscuring terrain makes hiding easier

Reasons why Genestealers are worse:
- Increased by 3 pts like other 'elite' infantry instead of 1 pt like other 'light' infantry.
- Vehicles can shoot non-blast weapons in melee
- Can't declare charge on everything within range

The suggestion that they're bad because you're 'trading 300 pt unit for sub-300 pt unit' is an issue genestealers had before this change. Only it was 240 pt for sub-240 pt unit. So if you made genestealers work before, I don't see how they wont do the same thing now. Tri-pointing multiple units (a character + infantry squad or just 2 infantry squads) shouldn't be too hard. Screens have to be too close to each other to be effective.

[kurtangle2]

Jul 20, 2020 14:26:30 GMT zimko said:

Reasons why Genestealers are better:
- Shorter boards
- limited overwatch
- screening units limited by coherency
- fly keyword can't shoot after falling back
- obscuring terrain makes hiding easier

Reasons why Genestealers are worse:
- Increased by 3 pts like other 'elite' infantry instead of 1 pt like other 'light' infantry.
- Vehicles can shoot non-blast weapons in melee
- Can't declare charge on everything within range

The suggestion that they're bad because you're 'trading 300 pt unit for sub-300 pt unit' is an issue genestealers had before this change. Only it was 240 pt for sub-240 pt unit. So if you made genestealers work before, I don't see how they wont do the same thing now. Tri-pointing multiple units (a character + infantry squad or just 2 infantry squads) shouldn't be too hard. Screens have to be too close to each other to be effective.

- Shorter board was never a plus when you could already skyrocket 40"+
- No OW is just a sidegrade for not being able to multicharge as before
- Screening is easily doable first turns even with coherency changes
- The only true buff to melee so far, feels like more a bug fix to me anyway

The cons outweigh the few pros now by a large margin, that's why we need to step away from that's unit asap to have a a decent change at trying to sin the game

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Jul 20, 2020 14:37:27 GMT kurtangle2 said:

Jul 20, 2020 14:26:30 GMT zimko said:

Reasons why Genestealers are better:
- Shorter boards
- limited overwatch
- screening units limited by coherency
- fly keyword can't shoot after falling back
- obscuring terrain makes hiding easier

Reasons why Genestealers are worse:
- Increased by 3 pts like other 'elite' infantry instead of 1 pt like other 'light' infantry.
- Vehicles can shoot non-blast weapons in melee
- Can't declare charge on everything within range

The suggestion that they're bad because you're 'trading 300 pt unit for sub-300 pt unit' is an issue genestealers had before this change. Only it was 240 pt for sub-240 pt unit. So if you made genestealers work before, I don't see how they wont do the same thing now. Tri-pointing multiple units (a character + infantry squad or just 2 infantry squads) shouldn't be too hard. Screens have to be too close to each other to be effective.

- Shorter board was never a plus when you could already skyrocket 40"+
- No OW is just a sidegrade for not being able to multicharge as before
- Screening is easily doable first turns even with coherency changes
- The only true buff to melee so far, feels like more a bug fix to me anyway

The cons outweigh the few pros now by a large margin, that's why we need to step away from that's unit asap to have a a decent change at trying to sin the game

1. It's harder for people to hide in the far corner of the board and bombard you for multiple turns with a smaller board.
2. You can still multicharge. It's not the first model that needs to make contact it's just the unit. This gives us a bit more flexibility. It's not as flexible as before, but at least we won't die to mass amounts of overwatch. We also force our opponent to make a decision about where they want to do overwatch.
3. You can still screen but it requires more models. That means our opponents are spending less points on other often more lethal threats.

Is stealer sling effective? Partially. I don't think it will win as well as it did in mid-8e, given that you now have to play secondaries to effectively win.

[acehilator]

Jul 20, 2020 15:28:45 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

2. You can still multicharge. It's not the first model that needs to make contact it's just the unit. This gives us a bit more flexibility. It's not as flexible as before, but at least we won't die to mass amounts of overwatch. We also force our opponent to make a decision about where they want to do overwatch.

That's not how it works. The problem with the new multicharge is that you have to roll high enough to reach every enemy unit that you declared against. If you can't do it, the charge fails. It's bad.

[Iryan]

Jul 20, 2020 16:22:05 GMT acehilator said:

Jul 20, 2020 15:28:45 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

2. You can still multicharge. It's not the first model that needs to make contact it's just the unit. This gives us a bit more flexibility. It's not as flexible as before, but at least we won't die to mass amounts of overwatch. We also force our opponent to make a decision about where they want to do overwatch.

That's not how it works. The problem with the new multicharge is that you have to roll high enough to reach every enemy unit that you declared against. If you can't do it, the charge fails. It's bad.

If you only intend to bad-touch additional units and don't care too much about attacking that one, you can still do that, since if you roll a sufficiently high charge range you can just move your models up close to the other unit and then move into engagement range during pile in. That is still 100% possible.

[zimko]

We're not in a great spot but 240 pts for 16 genestealers still seems like a decent missile that can kill some infantry and bad-touch some tanks.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Jul 20, 2020 16:22:05 GMT acehilator said:

Jul 20, 2020 15:28:45 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

2. You can still multicharge. It's not the first model that needs to make contact it's just the unit. This gives us a bit more flexibility. It's not as flexible as before, but at least we won't die to mass amounts of overwatch. We also force our opponent to make a decision about where they want to do overwatch.

That's not how it works. The problem with the new multicharge is that you have to roll high enough to reach every enemy unit that you declared against. If you can't do it, the charge fails. It's bad.

That is how it works.

In 8e, a charge failed if you failed to make contact with a unit you charged against with the first model you moved.

In 9e, a charge fails if you can't make contact with every unit you declared a charged against. Note that the first model restriction is removed. The fact that the first model doesn't need to make contact with everything you declared a charged against gives us some flexibility. Got two units 4" apart? Multicharge away.

[acehilator]

Yeah sure. But who cares about that? I care about charging a screen with a 1" charge and declaring something juicy 10 or 11" away to Overrun into it.

[kazetanade]

Jul 20, 2020 16:59:48 GMT acehilator said:

Yeah sure. But who cares about that? I care about charging a screen with a 1" charge and declaring something juicy 10 or 11" away to Overrun into it.

Considering Screens are much shorter in breadth and the deployment depth is a lot shallower, this is potentially viable as whatever is hiding far behind is not going to be 10 or 11" away, but more like 5 or 6" away. 

I am just going to come out and say it. ASSUMING GENESTEALERS CAN SURVIVE BEING ON THE TABLE T1, GS SLING IS MORE ALIVE THAN EVER! Just that instead of Multi Charging into a screen unit, waste your buttload of attacks on it, then do your combo into the next unit to hopefully kill it, you do it straight from the start, and use Fight Twice to kill off both units instead. And if you really want to do the old Fight and Hostage trick, you just need to trap 2 units , preferably close to or in their gunline, tap a few models into the non-tanks, then use the Distraction Unit strategem in their turn to give them a -1 for no reason at all. 

GS Sling is only really dead if the meta moves to a huge proliferation of ILOS shooting since most of them are Blast as well. With how tough souping is now, I actually dont think we'll see all that many ILOS Blast shooting across the table. 

The big issue here? I dont know if this will let us keep hold of objectives. You're definitely not getting wraps on specific midfield objectives, so this one is pretty much throw it into the enemy grinder and see what sticks. Also, melee is going to be a general thing, and GS dont go against other melee units particularly well, esp if they're stacked with T5 and/or an invul.

[zimko]

It might be worth considering Behemoth for genestealers. Obviously they're more expensive so getting +1 to wound will help them match up against the tougher units. And that reroll to charge may help with the afore mentioned multi-charge issue. The smaller board edge means you may not need the extra distance from kraken.